Genealogy Chat

It is possible that an ancestor of mine committed suicide and I'm enquiring if there are specific records that deal with such deaths. His name is James Carroll born in 1863 in Lancashire. He is on the 1901 Census as a Theatrical Comedian, a boarder at 139 Princes Street, Swindon. It has been suggested that he died in Scotland and possibly two children were taken in by Dr Barnado's. I know this is a long shot, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Gill

Don't think there's a specific list
His death cert will give details of cause of death

If you think he died in Scotland then you need Scotlands People website

What were the names of the children . Have you found them on later census

A tree on Ancestry has him dying in Liverpool in 1904 and buried at Ford Cemetery.

Worth investigating further, or have you dismissed it?

It also gives his birth as 9th June 1862 Liverpool, not 1863 Lancashire.

There is an internment on December 26 1904 of a James Carroll, address Royal Infirmary, age 41, in grave 430. If born in June 1862 he would have been 42, but the age could be wrong from the informant or the Ancestry tree is wrong.

There is marriage cert for him on ancestry 1st Feb 1888 Glasgow
Occ comedian. Father James Carroll carriage smith journeyman mother Ann Caffery

Bride. ??? Daisy Crowe. Occ actress Father Charles Henry Crowe sub conductor commissionaire dept. Mother Louisa. Can't read surmanes but was married twice poss maiden name Duncan

Same tree has his death as 1904

Edit from a tree on ancestry

James Carroll

Birth: 9 Jun 1862 - England
Death: Dec 1904 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Spouse: Kathleen Elizabeth Daisy Crowe

Per the tree, this is his marriage:

CARROLL
JAMES
CROWE
KATHLEEN ELIZAB[ETH DAISY ]
1888
644/12 58
Gorbals

Here they are with a child in 1891. .


James Carroll
in the 1891 England Census
Name: James Carroll
Gender: Male
Age: 28
Relationship: Son-in-law
Birth Year: 1863
Spouse: Daisy K Carroll
Child: Ivy K Carroll
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
Residence Place: London, St Pancras, London, England
Registration district: Pancras
Sub registration district: Regent
ED, Institution or Vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 116
Folio: 206
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles H Crowe 57
Louisa Crowe 57
Charles P Crowe 31
Daisy K Carroll 23 - actress, born Karsadiee, India
Ivy K Carroll 9 Months
James Carroll 28
Helen Caghill 49
Rose Caghill 18
Maria Masters 73


In 1901, Daisy is calling herself Norris:


Daisy Norris
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Daisy Norris
[Daisy Crowe]
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Mother: Louisa Crowe
Birth Place: India
Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: West Derby St John the Baptist
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: West Derby, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3500
Folio: 111
Page Number: 14
Household schedule number: 77
Household Members:
Name Age
Daisy Norris 33 - married
Ivy Norris 10
Moya Norris 4 - Scotland
Louisa Norris 2 - London
Francis Norris 8/12 - Liverpool
Louisa Crowe 68

Ivy's marriage:

Marriages Sep 1910 (>99%)
Carroll Ivy K W.Ham 4a 767
Shaw Stanley F W.Ham 4a 767

Probably Moya's birth:

CARROLL
EDINA MADGE MOY[A]
F
1897
685/2 174
St Andrew (Edinburgh)


Madge Edna Carroll
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Madge Edna Carroll
Age in 1911: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1897
Relation to Head: Patient
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Edinburgh
Civil Parish: Low Leyton
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: West Ham Union Infirmary, Whipps Cross Road, Leytonstone N E
Registration district: West Ham
Registration District Number: 188
Sub-registration district: North Leyton
ED, institution, or vessel: 41-47
Piece: 9674


No sign of Barnardo's so far, though haven't found Francis and Louisa yet.

Yes, here we are - this will be Louisa in 1911:


Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll
Age in 1911: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Canning Town, London, England
Civil Parish: Ilford
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: Dr Barnardo's Girls Village Homes, Barkingside, Ilford, Essex
Occupation: school
Registration district: Romford
Registration District Number: 191
Sub-registration district: Ilford
ED, institution, or vessel: 61-63
Household schedule number: 12
Piece: 9910



Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll
in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1916
Name: Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Jan 1899
Baptism Place: Bow Common St Paul, Tower Hamlets, England
Father: James Carroll
Mother: Kathleen Elizabeth Daisy Carroll
Register Type: Parish Registers

Miss Louisa P Carroll
in the UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name: Miss Louisa P Carroll
Gender: Female
Age: 26
Birth Date: abt 1899
Departure Date: 18 Jun 1925
Port of Departure: London, England
Destination Port: Sydney, Australia
Ship Name: Themistocles
Shipping line: The Aberdeen Line
Official Number: 129349
Master: N M Jermyn


Travelling with others (all domestics) from Dr Barnardo's Homes, Barking Side.

Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll
in the Sydney, Australia, Anglican Parish Registers, 1814-2011
Name: Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 28
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1902
Marriage Date: 17 Apr 1930
Marriage Place: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Father: James Carroll, deceased, actor
Mother: Kathleen Daisy Carroll
Spouse: Wilfred George Angus Eckersley



Louisa Patricia Daisy Eckersley
in the Australia and New Zealand, Find A Grave Index, 1800s-Current
Name: Louisa Patricia Daisy Eckersley
Death Date: 14 Dec 1938
Cemetery: Lutwyche Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place: Brisbane, Brisbane City, Queensland, Australia
Has Bio?: N

Re Francis -

CARROLL, FRANCIS JAMES mms CROWE
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 634


Long shot re his death ???

Francis James Carroll
in the New South Wales, Australia, Registers of Coroners' Inquests, 1821-1937
Name: Francis James Carroll
Birth Year: abt 1896
Birth Place: London, England
Death Year: Abt 1921
Death Place: Darling Harbour
Inquest Date: 3 Nov 1921
Inquest Place: City Coroner's Court
Age: 25

Cause of death: Asphyxia from drowning, wilfully caused by jumping overboard from SS Berrima



F J Carroll
in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922
Name: F J Carroll
Estimated birth year: abt 1900
Age: 21
Port of Departure: Melbourne
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 22 Oct 1921
Vessel Name: Berrima
Origin Location: Liverpool

He was a fireman on the ship's crew.



Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
View Record
Name Francis J Carroll
Death Date 1921
Death Place New South Wales
Father's Name James
Mother's Name Daisy C
Registration Year 1921
Registration Place Sydney New South Wales
Registration Number 15581

Baptism: 29 Dec 1897 St Augustine, Everton, Lancashire, England
Edina Madge Moya Carroll - [Child] of James Carroll & Daisy
Abode: 17 Rupert Hill
Occupation: Comedian
Baptised by: G W Williams
Register: Baptisms 1896 - 1941, Page 38, Entry 301
Source: LDS Film 1656013

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

Chris :)

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y

(above has Francis Carroll)


http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/birthsearch.php

(if anything Liverpool on above)


Edits (also adds below)

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php


Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1856 to 1860

CARROLL James CAFFREY Ann Birkenhead, Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended


Marriages Mar 1857 (>99%)
------------------------------------------
Caffrey Ann Wirral 8a 549
Carroll James Wirral 8a 549


Birth
CARROLL, JAMES (CAFFREY)
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 183

Birth
CARROLL, EMMA (CAFREY)
GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 198


1871 (Find My Past)
Ireland James Carroll Head - Male 38 (Coach Fitter) 1833 -
Ireland Ann Carroll Wife - Female 30 1841 -
Lancashire, England John Carroll Son - Male 14 1857 -
Lancashire, England Elizabeth A Carroll Daughter - Female 11 1860 -
Lancashire, England James Carroll Son - Male 9 1862 -
Lancashire, England Emma Carroll Daughter - Female 7 1864 -
Lancashire, England Isabella Carroll Daughter - Female 3 1868
Jenkinson Street, Everton, West Derby, Lancashire

Wow! I can't thank you all enough for the help you have given me. I'm going to need some time to go through all the information and see what I can marry up with what I already have. Once again many thanks. I will let you know how I get on.

Gill

The tree on Ancestry says this is Moya's marriage (don't know where the name Horton / Herton comes from):

Madge M Horton
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: Madge M Horton
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1918
Registration district: Howden
Inferred County: Yorkshire East Riding
Spouse: Arthur Otter
Volume Number: 9d
Page Number: 161

But this birth of a child looks as if the marriage is the wrong one - unless she was claiming Horton was her maiden name;

Births Dec 1919
Otter Samuel A Horton Howden 9d 5285/5
Otter Samuel O Horton Howden 9d 142


However, she certainly seems to have died as Otter, and in Yorkshire:

Edina M M Otter
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Edina M M Otter
Death Age: 63
Birth Date: abt 1897
Registration Date: Mar 1960
Registration district: Don Valley
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 2b
Page: 528



EDIT:

Samuel Arthur Otter
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Samuel Arthur Otter
Death Age: 73
Birth Date: 27 Oct 1919
Registration Date: Jun 1993
Registration district: Doncaster
Inferred County: South Yorkshire
Register Number: A40D
District and Subdistrict: 0421A
Entry Number: 218

An old thread of Gill's, about Moya - but not solving the Horton question:

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/918010


And a family tree listing two more Carroll children:

http://www.peterlg.co.uk/ghtout/gp4876.html

Thank you ArgyllGran. My next request was going to be about how I can find out why Edina Madge Moya Carroll had became Madge Moya Horton by the time she married my grandfather in 1918. I know I'm not very experienced regarding family history, but I think I've tried every avenue and can only assume that it's possible James Carroll's wife Daisy lived with Walter at some point. There is now the added complication that Daisy was also known as Norris and Moya has Norris as her surname in the 1901 Census. An interesting point is that Madge Moya is reputed to have spent time with a circus troupe known as the Dezmonti Trio, one of them being Walter Horton. I have been told she travelled to America with Walter and others, but have no idea when that was. Hope I haven't bored you with all this and thanks again for your help. Gill

Dezmonti name comes up on google search, also Newspapers.

(very often with Comedians, Actors, Theatrical Artists etc. they have 'stage names' making them a bit hard to trace, lol, and they don't always stick to same!)

Chris :)

Edits (hold on, lol, who are below?)

13 March 1897 - The Era - London, London, England

PRESENTATION - A handsome massive silver cup was presented to Edina Moya Norris, daughter of Mr James Norris and Daisy Delmont, on the finish of the pantomime, Theatre Royal, Edinburgh, by Mr. J.W. Bell, of the Black Bull, Edinburgh.


21 May 1892 - The Era - London, London, England

THE LONDON MUSIC HALLS.
MARLOW'S, BOW.
Out of the beaten track, too, is the entertainment tendered by Mr James Norris and Miss Daisy Delmont. Daisy is fair to look upon, is possessed of a good voice...


09 November 1895 - London and Provincial Entr'acte - London, London

PECKHAM VARIETIES, SOUTHAMPTON STREET.
James Norris and Daisy Delmont, variety artists;

Thank you Chris, but who on earth are Mr James Norris and Daisy Delmont? Nom de plumes for her parents, Mr James Carroll and Kathleen Elizabeth Daisy Carroll nee Crowe perhaps?

(well they seem to be in right places looking at some info. posted earlier!, perhaps better add them to your list, lol)

Chris :)

10 February 1900 - The Era - London, London, England

Death
CROWE - Feb 5th, at 17, Radclyffe-road, Upton-park, Charles Henry Crowe, the beloved father of Mrs James Norris (Miss Daisy Delmont) and brother of the late Gwyllym Crowe. Deeply mourned by his sorrowing wife, children, and grandchildren. Aged sixty-six.


03 March 1894 - The Era - London, London, England

Birth
NORRIS - On Thursday, Feb. 22nd, the wife of Mr James Norris (Miss Daisy Delmont), of a son, both doing well.


Birth
CARROLL, BERTIE GWYLLYM (CROWE)
GRO Reference: 1894 M Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 25


All London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1916 (Ancestry)

Bertie Gwyllym Carroll
25 Mar 1894 (Born Feb. 22nd) St Pancras St James Camden
James, (occ. Comedian)
Kathleen Elizabeth Daisy
(Abode, 17, Harrington Street)


Burial Register summary

Crowe Charles Henry
Burial date 10 February 1900
Location Newham

https://www.deceasedonline.com/


Deaths Mar 1900 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Crowe Charles Henry 66 W. Ham 4a 144


17 March 1894 - North Wales Chronicle - Bangor, Gwynedd, Wales

DEATH OF MR GWYLLM CROW, ; Many of our readers heard with deep regret of the sudden death from heart disease of Mr Gwyllym Crowe, who was the musical caterer at the Pier Company's concerts last season. Mt Crowe died on Thursday, in last week,...


http://newspapers.library.wales/

(also in above, plus other articles) (see also Daisy Delmont!)