General Chat

Dear All

Do you think that being "illegitimate" has a stigma?

Should it stop anyone getting baptised?

Why do people of all ages still experience problems with their birth certificates with
father not named for whatever reason?

Is there still predjudice from the church, people, etc?

What do you think?

Best wishes
x

Hi Elizabeth, I had no problem getting my son baptised. His father's name is not on birth cert' ( he wasn't there and you can't put it on unless present) but since my son will always know it ( not that he's especiialy bothered lol) I don't know that it matters much.

is there still a stigma? no I would say not to be honest, neither for the child or the mother now. It has become so much the 'norm' . Certainly not a moral issue like it was, when you were a 'fallen woman/ bad girl' if an unmarried mother.

rose xx

Hi Elizabeth and Rose,

My son is also illegitimate, he knows his father and father's family but doesn't seem bothered that there is no name on the birth certificate. His father lives in Malta so wasn't around for the birth or registration.

I would have had him christened but the person who came to see me and started asking about me getting him done, came back to say the then vicar of our local church, where coincidentally I was christened years before, wouldn't do it unless I promised to go to church every week. As I was a single mum in my mid thirties struggling to cope with all that had happened to me, being dumped when I got pregnant to plan of both of us, (his dad said he hadn't meant yet cos I got pregnant in the first week of trying!) and having problems with a child that never slept, there was no way I could or would say I would get to church every week, some days we didn't get up till midday as I had to snatch my sleep when I could. I figured if they were that rigid and uncaring that they couldn't see my problems, they weren't the people I wanted my son mixing with anyway. I didn't appreciate being told what to do, it was my lad I wanted christened, why should me going to church every week stop that happening?
Later on he went to a nearby Methodist church for Sunday School but left there when he decided he was confused and no one gave satisfactory answers. He said at school they told him there was an ozone layer above him in the sky and at Sunday School they said God was in heaven above him, he wanted to know which was right or how could God live in an ozone layer!! I didn't even try to explain lol, left it to school and church and they couldn't give him an answer that he could understand or believe so he said he wouldn't go to Sunday school any more lol

Lizx

As far as I am concerned, I am pleased that our mother or her sisters hadn't been pregnant before marriage, neither me OR my brothers had to have shotgun marriages, and both of MY children were married first(and still are) before starting their families,
but that was long ago, as they say, and to MY mind morals largely have gone out of the window, especially with many of the much younger generation........
one slip up is possibly forgiveable but I know of a case of 5 children, 5 different fathers.......
Bob

Interesting question. I must admit, it never stopped me getting baptised - although I was baptised at one day old because I wasn't expected to live.

I suppose you could say there are different levels of illegitimacy - as Bob mentioned, there are people my age (I'm 24) and younger who have several different children by several different partners and I don't think I could do that personally. I do feel that it's a pity that the extreme cases are the ones picked up on in the news because I think it's giving the whole of "the younger generation" (which I hope I'm still young enough to be classed as) a bad reputation that many of that age group probably don't deserve.

On the other hand perhaps it isn't so new - my 5xgreat-aunt who was a Catholic produced three illegitimate children between the time she was twenty in 1814 and the time she was thirty-one and each one of them appeared in the parish baptism records).

Then again there are a lot of couples today in stable relationships who have children but just don't choose to marry for whatever reason.

As far back as I can remember, I have always wondered why there was a stigma attached to the innocent children 'born out of wedlock'. If anyone has seen the old movie "Blossoms in the Dust", they might remember the statement "there are no illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents".

I also always wondered why pregnant brides attracted gossip - when quite possibly, the gossips did exactly the same as they did - but got away with it?

Thanks to the permissive society (and to the Pill!) people nowadays have babies because they want them, whether married or not and there is no stigma attached to any of them. That, to me, seems as big a step for mankind as the walk on the moon.

Even though I did the "right thing" myself (or my mother would have killed me!), I believe that it's each to his own and none of anybody's business when and if we have children and illegitimacy doesn't matter any more.

Good thought, Berona. I was just thinking, one thing we will probably never be able to tell from parish records etc showing that our ancestors had illegitimate babies is, what were the circumstances?

In those times of no contraception, maybe the ancestor I mentioned as having three children before marriage was a girl who fell in love easily and her boyfriend promised to marry her but then did a vanishing act, maybe she was the local girl with "a reputation" or perhaps her children were fathered by an employer that she couldn't say no to without losing her job?

As you say, now we have the means to plan families - back then, there weren't really any safe alternatives to having the baby (and even that was hazardous) so I suppose they had no option but to be pregnant and possibly be ostracised.

Berona,
"Thanks to the permissive society (and to the Pill!) people nowadays have babies because they want them"

Kate
"As you say, now we have the means to plan families ",

As you both say,
the means are there, but WHY( apart from the fact that benefits and housing are available to Schoolchildren or teenagers,) do children get pregnant? is it lack of morals or education? or is it
"I can do it........so I will?, the state will take care of me........."

Bob

At the risk of being corrected, I would be inclined to put it down to "incorrect" parenting. I won't say 'bad' parenting because some parents do their best and it still isn't good enough, but there are others who leave the kids to do their own thing and 'trust' them a little too much - and how would some parents know where the kids are if they are not at home themselves?

However, you are right about the assistance. If it meant that the girl and her baby would have to be kept by her parents, they might be more careful, but with government assistance available, there are those who just don't care. They don't think about the moral or psychological side of it - and there will always be people like that - that's life.

Our first two children were illegitimate, I didn't want to get married. A green piece of paper doesn't alter your state of happiness after all. The eldest was christened by the Bishop of Rochester himself (in the late 70's) and he saw no reason not to perform that.

They both had their father's names and we did marry just after second child was born so third one was the only legit birth. BTW we celebrate our Pearl anniversary this year so it's not as though we felt forced into marriage, we are still happy together and would be married or not.

Who knows what personal circumstances affect couples' decisions, countering that though I do wish some of today's youngsters would use birth control especially those not in stable relationships.

Sue x

I find that there are more youngsters who *respect*, be it tradition, their parents/grandparents/aunts and uncles/teachers etc than those who *disrespect*. But it is always the antics of the disrespectful few, who grab the attention, as they are the headline grabbers, the gossipmongers' delight.... the highlight of the handwringer's day!! In our day, and in our ancestor's day, too.

I think that any girl and boy under the age of, say, legal school leaving age..... having a baby, then the parents ( that is the grandparents of the baby) SHOULD be held legally responsible for the welfare and upkeep of the baby, until the childparents leave school... ...... I think you might just see a bit of a reduction!

Love

Daff xxxx

I think whether or not the parents are married is the lesser issue. What is more important that there is a stable relationship.

I am also strong believer that state benefits should be 'earned', not taken for granted. Sadly the ease in which benefits are paid to unmarried mothers makes it inevitable for a certain element to get pregnant soley to get those benefits, not just once but several times often without any regard as to who the father might even be.

When I did my family history I found out my grandmother was at least three months pregnant when she got married. Fair enough, but I already knew my grandfather threw his youngest daughter out for being pregnant when she was single, despite the fact she was in a stable relationship and went on to marry the father
How hypocritical is that?

It always amazes me that the Government always gets itself in knots wondering what they could do to stop so many teenagers getting pregnant when the obvious thing would be to stop the benefits and the housing. Where I live almost every teenager you see is pushing a buggy. I often wonder if they see past the "dolly" stage - being able to dress up a cute little baby and wonder how they're going to feel looking after a stroppy 14year old when they're still young and could be going out with their few contemporaries that are left and enjoying themselves.
Just my opinion and I in no way include everyone who has a child when they are single in this. There are many other scenarios

Holland does exactly that. No benefits whatsoever for teenage mothers - parents have to take full responsibility.

As a result very few get pregnant.....!

Lol Brinsley.... didn't realise that my idea had already been successfully put into practice!!

I shall pride myself on good sense from now onwards....... lol But it does seem logical, doesn't it??

Love

Daff xxxx

Meduck, It is rather hypocritical, that.

It is easy to forget that in the last century, certainly in some parts of the country, 'betrothed' couple were allowed and even encouraged to have sex, to prove that they were capable of furthering the family line. God forbid, though if they didn't get married when the girl became pregnant.

Marriages when the bride was 6,7,8 or even 9 months pregnant were actually quite common. We have quite a few in our tree.

Perhaps they felt guilty later, which is why they adopted a much more puritanical view towards their children and grandchildren.

Daff, yes, apparently I read somewhere that young girls ho do become pregnant in Holland are viewed as being rather stupid. (that's putting it politely)

There are other factors, such as better sex education, starting at a young age with an emphasis on the caring relationship, but it shows it can be done.

No young girl who becomes pregnant is stupid, Brinsley... they are generally just naive, and believe the crap that is spouted to them by manipulative young men/boys. Oh, and older men as well.....!

I do agree, that the emphasis on long term relationship is the key, however.

Funny, I lived on the Dutch / German border for a number of years.... always felt that they were on the ball, even though they were quite progressive!!

A young girl on work experience at our nursery said she would soon have lots of practice with babies as lots of her friends were pregnant. (She is 16).

I said "that's a bit young" and she said " Yes but they get £200 when they get pregnant and that's why they do it!!" She was really impressed.

I don't know if that's the case but she seemed to think it was worth it. Amazingly naive view of all of them.