General Chat

can anyone please help ... im pretty sure two of my relatives on my tree were cousins who married back in 1889 but i just cant find the proof .. is there any way of prooving this?
an help would be wonderful
thanks
lorraine

Is there no marriage certificate ? Sometimes people had different names to the ones they used could be under their "real names"

hi kempina ...yes there is a marriage cert and the dad for the groom is the same person as the brides uncle(i think) .. same place of birth same age same name.. this is what is makin me wonder ..the brides father is not listed as he was deceased..

Gosh ...No brides fathers name!! is there any way to double check ...like addresses do they in anyway match?

yes they both live at the same address ... ive been puzzled by these two for a long time and they both had the same surname before marriage and she wasnt married before as she is listed as spinster .. im pretty sure they were cousins as they had a deaf and dumb son as well ... any way of proovin they were cousins? would it be written anywhere on any documentation?

also i think that the bride was illigitamate from what i can trace therefore thats why the father is listed as deceased

Can you find a marriage for the brides uncle/ grooms father ?

If so you may be able to match his signature if he witnessed any of his other childrens marriages...


Have you tracked both families {Bride and uncle} on census...was the uncle living in the same area a the time of the marriage?


Do you want to put up some names and let us all have a look??


Nicky

The address may be the same which is handy but like nickdownsouth says is it the same street or same area and have you traced the amrriages of the uncles and their siblings

Don't forget that they would often give the same address even if they weren't actually both living there - something to do with fees possibly, if one really lived in a different parish.

Comparing signatures is a good idea, but you'd have to get hold of a copy of the PR as the GRO certs are transcribed.

Have you been able to find either people with the same name living elsewhere on successive census, just in case it was a name con-incidence? But the deaf/dumb notation does make it seem more likely you have the right people.

Does anyone know when we will be able to see the disability column on the 1911? That might clinch it.

THANKS FOR ALL UR REPLIES ... I HAD TO RUSH AWAY FROM MY PC EARLIER .....THEIR NAMES WERE THOMAS WEAL AND ELIZABETH SUSAN WEAL ... HIS FATHER IS NAMED AS JAMES WEAL FROM DODDINGHURST AND IVE ONLY BEEN ABLE TO TRACE RECORDS OF ONE OTHER JAMES WEAL BORN THE SAME YEAR ... I DIDNT KNOW I COULD VIEW THE ORIGINAL CERTS WITH SIGNITURES ON . .THIS IS A GOOD IDEA .. HOW DO I DO THAT?

JUST RELOOKING AT MY TREE .. I HAVENT YET TRACED THE FAMILY OF THE UNCLE ... WELL NOT PARTNER OR CHILDREN ONLY HIS SIBLINGS .. HE WAS JAMES WEAL B.1830/31 IN DODDINGHURST ESSEX

JUST RELOOKING AT MY TREE .. I HAVENT YET TRACED THE FAMILY OF THE UNCLE ... WELL NOT PARTNER OR CHILDREN ONLY HIS SIBLINGS .. HE WAS JAMES WEAL B.1830/31 IN DODDINGHURST ESSEX

Is this the bride in 1881 prior to her marriage to Thomas??

Frederick BALDWIN Head W Male 25 Paddington, Middlesex, England Hackney Carriage Driver
Frederick A.J. BALDWIN Son Male 6 Paddington, Middlesex, England Scholar
William A. BALDWIN Son Male 5 Paddington, Middlesex, England Scholar
Florence BALDWIN Daur Female 2 Chelsea, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth S. WEAL Boarder U Female 20 Kelvedon, Essex, England Domestic Servant


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 25 Lancefield St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341020
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0089 / 15
Page Number 25



Nicky

And is this Thomas with father James in 1881 prior to his marriage to Elizabeth Susan??


Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
James WHEEL Head M Male 45 Heldon, Essex, England Carman
Eliza WHEEL Wife M Female 46 Walton, Essex, England
Thomas WHEEL Son U Male 25 Heldon, Essex, England Carman
William BIBBY Lodger W Male 58 Colchester, Essex, England Blacksmith


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 1 Mary Cottages
Census Place Leyton Low, Essex, England
Family History Library Film 1341415
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 1727 / 57
Page Number 50




Just trying to confirm the correct people to trace back on...

If these 2 arn`t your couple can you please put up their details..


Nicky

For reference ...the marriage..

Marriages Jun 1889 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HILLIER Louisa Whitechapel 1c 589
PEARL John Whitechapel 1c 589
WEAL Elizabeth Susan Whitechapel 1c 589
WEAL Thomas Robert Whitechapel 1c 589



Nicky

1901 for reference..


WEAL, Elizabeth Head Married F 40 1861 Dressmaker
Kelvedon
Essex VIEW
WEAL, Ernest Son Single M 7 1894
Deaf& Dumb Chd Whitechapel
London VIEW
WEAL, Geoffrey Son Single M 5 1896
Whitechapel
London VIEW
WEAL, Nellie Daughter Single F 4 1897
Deaf & Dumb Chd Whitechapel
London VIEW
WEAL, Thomas Son Single M 3 1898
Whitechapel
London VIEW
WEAL, Elsie Daughter Single F 0 (1 MOS) 1901
Leytonstone
Essex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG13 Piece:
1614 Folio:
85 Page:
3

Registration District:
West Ham Sub District:
South Leyton Enumeration District:
33 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Leytonstone St Margaret

Civil Parish:
Low Leyton Municipal Borough:
Address:
426, High Road, Low Leyton County:
Essex




Nicky

1911...


Place of birth changed to Brentwood for both.....

WEAL, Thomas Head Married M 52 1859 Carman Essex Brentwood VIEW
WEAL, Elizabeth Wife Married
21 years F 50 1861 Essex Brentwood VIEW
WEAL, Geoffrey Son M 15 1896 Office Boy London Whitechapel VIEW
WEAL, Thomas Son M 13 1898 School London Whitechapel VIEW
WEAL, Dora Daughter F 8 1903 School Essex Leytonstone VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
9627 Reference:
RG14PN9627 RG78PN512 RD188 SD8 ED22 SN12

Registration District:
West Ham Sub District:
South Leyton Enumeration District:
22 Parish:
Cann Hall

Address:
430 High Road L-Stone Leytonstone County:
Essex




Nicky

So this is James Weal ,who is Thomas`s father in 1851 with his parents and siblings...

WEAL, James Head Married M 56 1795 Gardener (Gentleman)
Stanford Rivers
Essex VIEW
WEAL, Susan Wife Married F 50 1801
Kelvedon Hatch
Essex VIEW
WEAL, Sarah Daughter Unmarried F 28 1823
Doddinghurst
Essex VIEW
WEAL, James Son Unmarried M 20 1831 Farm Labourer
Doddinghurst
Essex VIEW
WEAL, Henry Son Unmarried M 18 1833 Farm Labourer
Doddinghurst
Essex VIEW
WEAL, Edward Son Unmarried M 14 1837 Farm Labourer
Doddinghurst
Essex VIEW
WEAL, Susan Daughter F 12 1839 Scholar
Doddinghurst
Essex VIEW
WEAL, William Son M 10 1841 Scholar
Doddinghurst
Essex VIEW
JESPER, Jane Alice Grand Daughter F 4 1847
Doddinghurst
Essex VIEW
WEAL, Alfred Son Married M 23 1828 Ag Labourer
Doddinghurst
Essex VIEW
WEAL, Elizabeth Married F 20 1831
High Ongar
Essex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
HO107 Piece:
1771 Folio:
241 Page:
10

Registration District:
Ongar Sub District:
Chipping Ongar Enumeration District:
2 Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Kelvedon Hatch Municipal Borough:
Address:
Dodds Farm, Kelvedon Hatch County:
Essex

So you think Elizabeth Susan Weals mother is the sister of James??


I think your best bet would be to get Elizabeth Susans birth cert... this will give her mothers name, the address may match as address that James or his parents are at in 1861 census.... that would confirm your supiscions...


Births Dec 1860 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WEAL Elizabeth Susan Ongar 4a 73




Nicky

The marriage is on Ancestry........

Name: Elizabeth Susan Weal
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Spouse Name: Thomas Robert Weal .........carman
Spouse Age: 30
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 15 Apr 1889
Parish: Christ Church, Spitalfields
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Weal gardener ( deceased)
Spouse Father Name: James Weal ............carman

Witnesses Shepherd Brown and Jessie Brown

Gwyn

Births Dec 1860

WEAL Elizabeth Susan .... Ongar 4a 73
.............................................................................................

1861
Name: Elizabeth Weal
Age: 7 MO
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Sarah An Weal
Gender: Female
Where born: Kelvedon Hatch, Essex, England

Civil parish: Kelvedon Hatch
Ecclesiastical parish: Rochester
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Ongar
Sub-registration district: Chipping Ongar
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 11
Piece: 1067
Folio: 16
Page Number: 2
Household Members: Name Age
Sarah An Weal 40
Jane A Weal 13
Rosa E Weal 6
Susan Weal 23
Elizabeth Weal 7 MO

IMAGE actually shows Sarah An as the head, with her children.
Susan is the sister of Sarah and the mother of Elizabeth.
ALL unmarried

Gwyn