Find Living Relatives

Ruth Jones who married lyon has the exact date of birth as my grandmothers mum . It even tells Me this on the death certificate I have for Ruth lyon .

Also I have seen the marriage to Henry online and it fits Ruth Jones perfectly from the census information I have .

Seeing a marriage record is not the same as having the cert

If Ruth left her husband LYON, and then put her daughter by JAMES in a home, how is it that RIchard LYON was the informant on what you think is this person's death?

I don't have all the answers . Hence why I am on here trying to make sense of it all .
How is seeing it online not the same as seeing the certificate in writing .. It shows the actual marriage certificate on ancestry .
The actual certificates I do have are my grandmothers birth certificate , her mother's marriage certificate to Ernest james , her mother's birth certificate and what I believe to be her mother's death certificate in the name of Ruth lyon

I didn't know you'd seen the cert image. Apologies

I don't have access to Ancestry

So you're saying ( I think) that this Ruth left her husband and infant son, 'married' another man, had his child, who she put in a home, then blithely went back to her actual husband and carried on as though nothing untoward had happened

Like I say I don't have all the answers . I am just trying to piece together what happened and try and move forwards to find living ancestors .
Of course there is the possibility that we have been given the wrong birth certificate for my Nan's mum . So I'm really not sure what to make of it

Also a possibility is that she left her baby daughter Ruth with Ernest and his mother . My nan was 5 when she was put into the first home . Then when she was 8 she was transferred to fazackerly homes and we received a letter from liverpool city council in 2002 stating Annie james as her mum .. But Annie james was Ernest's mum . And the address for his mum was in liverpool . The adress was a upholster shop and Ernest's dad was an upholsterer before he died . I think she was most likely put in the home as Ernest's mum would of been in her 60's when my nan was 5 and maybe her health wasn't so good .
And because Ruth got married in Birkenhead to Ernest and let St helens like she did to Henry then maybe he didn't know about the marriage or if he did perhaps he didn't know about the baby if they had split up for a while .
Just a thought .

You're assuming the birth cert for a Ruth Jones is the correct one. How do you know it is? Do you know how many Ruth Jones there were?

All the evidence seems to point to it being the wrong one.

Rose

It's possible Ernest died in the war.

Have you seen this?

Marriages Sep 1918 (>99%)
James Ruth A Kendrick Birkenhead 8a 1237
Kendrick Robert L James Birkenhead 8a 1237

Can't find any trace of them after this.

Rose

I Am presuming birkenhead gave us the right birth certificate and we have tried tracing Ernest in ww1 as I know that's a possibility . I know there weren't any Ruth Annie Jones in the area at that time which is what she put her name as on her marriage to Ernest .
Liverpool city council helped to track the birth certificate for my nan's mum and we have never questioned it until I came across the marrisge to Henry lyon and also I didn't realise wihen I just put her birth date in on ancestry and the surname that it would narrow the death results to just one or two people .
Yes I did notice the marriage for Ruth Anne james to Robert Kendrick . I haven't sent off for that certificate yet and that's becsuse when you search on Lancashire bmd there is an asterisk at the side of their name if they have been married before .
So let's say liverpool gave us the wrong birth certificate then who do I contact to get the right one ? We got the birth certificate back in 2002

if you don't understand why Jacqueline was not a happy bunny, it is because you have run two threads about slightly different aspects of the exact same thing which is against the guidelines because people duplicate effort ... and now it is discouraging for anyone who wants to figure out what has been researched, what has been discarded ...

you say

'The Ruth Lyon that died in [Knowsley] had the exact date off Birth as my Ruth Jones 03-04-1895.
The informant on the death certificate is their son Richard Lyon'


it seems fairly clear that you have just gone in a big circle ... you found the death of a Ruth Annie Lyons that matches the marriage of Ruth Jones to Lyons, and then you got the birth certificate for that Ruth Jones

'my Ruth Jones 03-04-1895' ... is not your Ruth Jones, she is the Ruth Jones who married Lyon

that Ruth Jones Lyons seems to have lived a perfectly normal life, being born, marrying, having children with her husband, and staying married to him

this is a closed circle that your Ruth Jones just does not come into !

you call the birth certificate you have the one for your nan's mum, but that is based only on your assumption that the death certificate you got is for your nan's mum, etc

the 1916 Jones+James marriage certificate says

'Ruth Annie Jones 21 . Father john Jones deceased . Occupation merchant service captain and their address didn't exist'

so presumably the birth certificate you got says father John Jones ... but how many John Jones were there??

you found a Ruth Jones with father John in the censuses whose father was a glass blower?

it's very hard to follow what info comes from where, here


your Ruth could indeed have lied about various things on her marriage certificate ... the most obvious might be her age ... she married only 3 months before their child was born and may have been too young to marry without parental permission, for example ... note that she made herself exactly 21, the legal age for marrying without permission

your Ruth might have been born to unmarried parents and simply made up the father she put on the marriage certificate, is another not uncommon possibility


but the reasoning that brought you to Lyons is really completely circular, do you see?

for our info, this is the Ruth Jones who married Lyons, I believe? in 1911


Name: Ruth Jones
Age in 1911: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1895
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Sptiter Girl Glass Works

Birth Place: St Helens, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: St Helens
Registration district: Prescot
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 6 Exeter St St Helens Lancashire

John Jones 39 glass blower
Elizabeth Jones 40
Ruth Jones 16
Berty Jones 14
Charles Jones 12
Ernest Jones 10
Austin Jones 7
Harald Jones 5
Jack Jones 3
Harry Jones 1/12

I don't think I get exactly what your saying but I do know what you mean about Ruth Jones and Henry lyon living a normal life .
The info I have for john Jones came from Ruth Jones birth certificate stating her father was john Jones snd a glass blower and her mother Elizabeth Jones nee Austin and their adress 6 exeter street . So I have the right census information for them as they still lived there in the 1901 and 1911 census . Now if I go off that info then the msrriage to Henry lyon is more believable as it lists john Jones as deceased and a glass blower and Ruth aged 20 which she was going off her birth certificate .And the date of birth for Ruth Jones that married Henry is exactly as the birth certificate because it tells me on her death certificate . So I think we have the wrong birth certificate for My Nan's mum even though we had someone at liverpool search for it but back then they didn't have the technology we have now I don't think .
As for upsetting Jacqueline .. It wasn't intentional and it's the first time I have used these boards . So I apologise and won't make the same mistake again

are the dads names and occupations the same on BOTH marriage certs?

it really does seem there are two Ruth Jones

Did you find a death for Ruth James or her hubby in case she remarried after his death

Sharon, the only reason you have that Ruth Jones birth certificate is that it matches the birthdate for Ruth Lyons on her death

it's not a huge coincidence that her father was John, and the fact that the occupation of >your Ruth Jones' father and >that Ruth Jones' father is different is explained by the fact that they are two different Ruths with two different fathers John

(if your Ruth's father was really John Jones anyway)

yes, I think you have the wrong birth certificate for your Ruth Jones ! and your Ruth is not the Ruth who married Lyon ... that is what everybody has been saying

what the person searched for was a birth certificate to match the death you had found, as I understand it? and it does ... it just isn't your Ruth

eliminate that Ruth Jones

your Ruth could have come from Wales for all we know ... there are dozens of them in the 1901 Wales census born around the right time

if your Ruth had not been pregnant and said she was 21 at the time she married Ernest, we could have more confidence in what she said on the marriage certificate (father's name and occupation, her age) ... but the circumstances were such that it's just as likely that both her father and her age were fabricated, if not her name itself

Thank you I do understand what you are saying now thank goodness . And no they didn't find the birth certificate based on Ruth Lyons death . We obtained the birth certificate in 2002 and I only got Ruth Lyons death certificate last week .
So now I will email liverpool and see if they can help Me find the right birth certificate
Thankyou everyone for your help it's much appreciated

just for our info this is Ernest in 1911

Name: Ernest James
Age in 1911: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: St Helens, Lancashire, England
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Stone Sawyer

Civil Parish: Prescot
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 2 Royal Hotel Yd Derby St Prescot
Registration district: Prescot

Ann James 56
Samuel James 25 watch repairer
Arthur James 22 copper wire winder
Ernest James 20
Edith James 18


and in 1891

Name: Ernest James
Age: 8/12
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Father's name: Edward James
Mother's name: Annie James
Gender: Male
Where born: St Helens, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: St Helens
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: St Helens
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Prescot

Edward James 38 upholsterer
Annie James 36
Edward James 7
Samuel James 8
Arthur James 2
Ernest James 8/12

(eldest son Edward seems to be a baker's foreman in 1911 possibly, in Whiston and Prescot)


Births Dec 1890
James Ernest Prescot 8b 700


you think that by 1921 when your nan was placed in care, Ernest's mother Ann (closer to 70 than 60) was living at the address of an upholsterer shop in Liverpool and caring for young Ruth

I would think that unlikely ... unless the upholsterer were one of Ernest's older brothers for instance and it was really the younger couple she had been left with

I suspect rather that Ruth, if her name was Ruth, had adopted the name Ann that she may or may not have had as her middle name ... or that perhaps Ann/ie was her real name and she had adopted Ruth

it was not at all uncommon for young women in the early 1900s to modernise their names from the ones they had that seemed old fashioned at the time, and Annie would be one such

I know that she was placed in the first home in 1921 and moved to a different children's home in 1925 . My nan remembered her mother visiting her in the first home on regular occasions . On the last visit she was told by the nuns that Her mother was very ill and she wouldn't be seeing her again and on that visit her mum brought her a lovely doll . She never saw her mum again . And she was transferred to fazackerly because you could only stay at olive mount until you was 8 years old . Then from fazackerly lots of children were adopted ..mainly overseas but my nan wasn't and got fostered out at the age of 11 where she remained till she was 16 and made Her own way in life . She always wondered whether she had any brothers or sisters .

Referring back to the marriage info posted by Rose

An R L Kendrick of the right age migrated to South Africa in 1930 What happened to his wife is anyone's guess, as there is no info about her on FMP that I can see

BTW, Sharon, that marriage was in Cheshire............

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1918
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register OfficeKENDRICK Robert Lang JAMES Ruth Anne Oxton, Congregational Church (Balls Road) Wirral BK33/1/28