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1891 census - household transcription
Person: HILL, Ernest T
Address: 17, Heathfield Street, Kensington

HILL, Ernest T Head Married M 31 1860 Gas Fitter
Richmond
Surrey VIEW
HILL, Agness A Wife Married F 30 1861
Kensington
London VIEW
HILL, Florence A Daughter F 10 1881 Scholar
Paddington
London VIEW
HILL, Emily M Daughter F 8 1883 Scholar
Notting Hill
London VIEW
HILL, Ernest G F Son M 6 1885 Scholar
Notting Hill
London VIEW
HILL, William H Son M 5 1886 Scholar
Notting Hill
London VIEW
HILL, Walter H Son M 1 1890
Notting Hill
London


Could Ernest G F be Freederick?

An orphaned looking Frederick Hill in 1891:

Name: Frederick Hill
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Where born: N

Civil parish: Sutton
Town: Sutton
County/Island: Surrey

Registration district: Epsom
ED, institution, or vessel: S M D School Brighton Road

I'm going to be really pushy ... If FMP records are edited slightly when posted they are infinitely easier to read and don't call for acres of scrolling. E.g.:

HILL, Ernest T Head Married M 31 1860 Gas Fitter Richmond Surrey
HILL, Agness A Wife Married F 30 1861 Kensington London
HILL, Florence A Daughter F 10 1881 Scholar Paddington London
HILL, Emily M Daughter F 8 1883 Scholar Notting Hill London
HILL, Ernest G F Son M 6 1885 Scholar Notting Hill London
HILL, William H Son M 5 1886 Scholar Notting Hill London
HILL, Walter H Son M 1 1890 Notting Hill London

Both of you do realize this will drive you crazy. Ah no matter you're already half way there already. Crazy that is!! I think I might go and hide.

I was sent a PM with some additional information. I am not certain it fits in with my Hill's but it needs to be on the thread.

I will be back with some edits.

First Edit. Sent to me. I have not been through it in any detail.

I am not sure if i can throw any light on this subject. But, my grandfather John William Hill b 28/7 1874 son of John Hill and Sarah Ellis reg dist Bethnal Green, County of Middx, birth registered 8/91874. Was married twice but i cannot find out for certain who he married. He sometimes used the Aubrey as a third christian name.He possibly married an Harriett Edith Butler ( i have a cert) on 3rd May 1897 in The Parish Church of St. Paul Bermondsey in the county of London, Harriett was living at 89 Hamilton Square and John at 11, Holcombe Buildings. St. Olave witnesses Frederick Stallard and Mary Ann Stallard.

Or it could have been a Annie Mary or May Woods but i cannot find any details about her, the GRO gave me a refund. The ref for marriage is the same for both Harriett and Annie. Date of death is unknown for both, so they both could have had children with the name of Hill.

On the 1891 John had a brother Ernest aged 12 and a scholar born in Camberwell.
John did not marry my Gran until 1926 after 11 children, so they both must have died sometime in between.On the marriage cert it states his age as 51 and my Gran was 37 it also states his is Widower.

Next. You will notice the name of the witnesses. Stallard. The name that FannyBy Gaslight is researching. Fanny is now desperately trying to sort out her ancestry just in case she too might be related to the mad Aunty Sherlock.

Don't you like my Fred/erick Hill in 1891 and 1901, in institutions both years, no parents, no place of birth??

I do, actually. ;)

Hang on I'm here. Need to go read something.

OK You have found the Frederick Hill at the school aged 4 which I have found. And then again in the 1891 census. I have another Frederick Hill aged 24 in the 1911 census who is living with a family in Fulham London, his occupation is "butcher".

By 1915 Frederick Hill was on the Orontes as a 3rd Class Waiter sailing for Australia. His occupation in Australia was signwriter. His father named as Ernest on the Marriage Certificate was a clerk. I can't see him being a butcher.


I have every marriage between an Ernest Hill and any woman between about 1880 and 1894. Would you like a list of the women. I now propose to search those names and see when they died.

I have not thought of looking for Frederick with siblings. I am looking for a first child whose parents both died while he was young. Ernest would have been born about 1867 or earlier to have a child born around 1887

I do not understand how he knew his father's name and not his mother's name. Would you not think it would be the reverse. In the next two weeks I will be undertaking a search for his death certificate. I need to go do the search myself through records which are not available on line. I do not expect that, if I find the certificate, it will contain any more information than did his marriage certificate.

Interesting - the Add button doesn't work.

Re the mistranscribed name. I found one which was hopeful, I need to go look for it again.

OK I remembered. Frederick William Hull, father Ernest. Wrong place Herefordshire, wrong date 1890. Also looked at Hell. Interesting one there with just initials for family names.

re siblings -- the 1891 FH in the institution - there are a couple of other Hills there too, one of whom, if I recall, also has an unknown place of birth.

I'm thinking maybe it was his father placed him in an institution when his mother died and the father couldn't care for him -- or more especially if there were multiple children and he couldn't care for them. So it would be the father's name on the institutional records that followed him. ?


re Hackney Union Training School, Brentford, the location of my 1901 FH:

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?Hackney/Hackney.shtml

Quite the hair-raising tales ...

http://www.sussex-opc.org/index.php?cy=1&n=rottingdean&b=index.php&k=449&t=Parish


I wonder if these people would have any information.

I can not find the 1891 census with more than one Hill in it. The 1901 census appears to be a housekeeper with children who married the head of a household. Youngest daughter has a hyphenated name.

I am looking through the Workhouse Records. The 1881 children are too old to fit the criteria. He needs to be between 3 and 6 years old. Lots of information.

This is the one / these are the ones I'm talking about.


1891

Name: Frederick Hill
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Where born: N

Civil parish: Sutton
Town: Sutton
County/Island: Surrey
Registration district: Epsom
ED, institution, or vessel: S M D School Brighton Road


1901

Name: Frederick Hell
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation: Inmate
[no place of birth]

Civil parish: Brentwood
Town: Brentwood
County/Island: Essex
Registration district: Billericay
ED, institution, or vessel: Hackney Union Training Schools



In the same institution as that 1891 Frederick are:

Name: Henry Hill
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1885
Where born: N

Name: Samuel Hill
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Where born: Gravesend, Kent, England


Possibly unrelated, but the not-known birthplace for the Henry in particular makes him look possibly related.


This might make a pair. ;)

Births Mar 1887
Hill Frederick William Shoreditch 1c 89

Births Jun 1885
Hill Henry James Shoreditch 1c 93

Hi LK, Thank you for your input. You know how slow I am with sorting these things out. You mentioned you had a magic wand for the 1911 census. I had to miss these ones when I ran out of credits. Would you wave the magic wand and I'll owe you a look up sometime.

HILL, Frederick 1887 24 M Fulham London
HILL, Frederick 1888 23 M Fulham London


I am also interested in your comment on the end of one of your posts about Ernest and a grand child. Could you clarify that for me please.

Janey I'm going back to look at the births and baptism records outside of those useless birth index thingies. If the parents are not named in these records, the names will not be on the birth certificates, or will they.

Oh heavens. What is the point in looking for baptisms for children who do not have parents. They would not have been baptised. Yes I did look and you can have a hundred combinations of Frederick, William, Ernest ,Henry Hill. All born between 1885 and 1887 and all in the general London area.

I need to go to bed. My brain is not operating.

not ths one
1911 HILL, Samuel Head Married M 49 1862 Out Of Work Middlesex London VIEW
HILL, Mary Wife Married
28 years F 49 1862 Middlesex London VIEW
HILL, Frederick Single Single M 24 1887 Greengrocer Middlesex London VIEW
HILL, William Single Married M 26 1885 Greengrocer Middlesex London VIEW
HILL, Harry Single M 13 1898 Middlesex London

1911
Address: 16 Avalon Road Fulham S WGEORGE, Alfred Head Married M 68 1843 Boot Repaired St Luke Ferry Norfolk VIEW
GEORGE, Laura Wife Married
40 years F 58 1853 Bury St Edmunds Suffolk VIEW
GEORGE, Charles Son Single M 28 1883 Packer At Bracks Chelsea London VIEW
GEORGE, Rose Daughter Single F 23 1888 Lamp Maker At Ossam Chelsea London VIEW
GEORGE, Charles Grandson Single M 9 1902 School Fulham London VIEW
HILL, Frederick Boarder Single M 23 1888 Butcher Battersea London

In response to your query re baby ernest'

I looked at this one as Hills living in Kensington area
Blanche is widowed and seeing Ernest as one of her children I was interested, On checking though she married William.

The other thing about that batch is that they're rather well off, all living on their own means. ;)

I think we're more likely to find a young man who didn't know his mother's name (and possibly didn't know his father's, we don't know) in rather more reduced circumstances ... like ... in children's institutions! Like my F(s) Hell/Hill! ;)

I wonder about one of these in 1911

MILITARY HILL FREDERICK 1886 25 Overseas Royal Navy
MILITARY HILL FREDERICK 1889 22 Overseas Military
MILITARY HILL FREDERICK 1888 23 Overseas Military

and maybe particularly the Navy one.

They all answered to "born in London" which is the sort of vague birthplace we might expect?

I have been pondering whilst looking for E*rnest -clerk.

If you were a small child and your father died
grow up and get married

would clerk be what you could remember about his work?
You might remember if he was a builder or a farmer
but clerk?

I wonder if he was still alive and in contact.?
But if he was surely you would know mothers name?