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Researching Morgan/Hill Birchgrove Cardiff

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date


Cheryl Report 5 Sep 2012 16:57

Hi, I am researching my family tree and looking for information on my g. grandmother's ancestory
Her name was Rosina Morgan (known as Rose) and she lived in Cardiff all of her life. I am unsure of her maiden name as I have found her as a SMITH on the marriage cert for her first marriage to John Thomas Donald and on my grandmothers birth cert (family living in Wenvoe at that point). Rose then has the maiden name CLARK on the birth record of her next two children (Nellie and Norman HILL). She has the maiden name CLARK on her marrriage record to a Richard MORGAN in 1919 and on her daughter Joan's birth record in 1920 and on her death cert in 1979.
At the moment I am unable to trace rose's ancestors as I have no idea which maiden name to follow! If anyone has information on this family I would really appreciate them contacting me.
Thanks, Cheryl


MarieCeleste Report 5 Sep 2012 16:59

Hi Cheryl, and welcome to the boards.

Who was Rosina's father on her marriage certificates? That's usually the best way to track back.

Were the Hill births from another relationship but not married?

It's unlikely that anyone related will happen across your post, you can always use the "Search" facility (above right) to see if anyone else has the same family members in their tree - you can then make contact by sending a message.


AnnCardiff Report 5 Sep 2012 17:03

wonder if they are connected to the Hill's who had a fish and chip shop for many years in Birchgrove - certainly in the forties and for decades after

Mike *

Mike * Report 5 Sep 2012 17:04

Her maiden name should appear on all her children's birth certs.

Do you have some dates for her birth and those of her children?


MarieCeleste Report 5 Sep 2012 17:05

Presume this is the correct death record (for her birth date):

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2006
Name: Rosina Morgan
Birth Date: 2 Apr 1891
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1979
Age at Death: 87
Registration district: South Glamorgan
Inferred County: South Glamorgan
Volume: 28
Page: 2739

Mike *

Mike * Report 5 Sep 2012 17:08

John Thomas Donald ... is Donald his surame ?


MarieCeleste Report 5 Sep 2012 18:15

.... or is he John Thomas Donald HILL??

Can't find anything that resembles the first marriage for either option.

We need Cheryl to come back and give us some more clues.

What is known about either husband - when and where was each one born/died - their records might cast more light on her.


HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Sep 2012 18:48

working back

1919 marriage to Richard Morgan

Marriages Sep 1919 (>99%)
Hill Rosina Morgan Cardiff 11a 1197
Morgan Richard Hill Cardiff 11a 1197

Then there's this marriage

Marriages Mar 1913 (>99%)
Donald Rosina Hill Cardiff 11a 679
Hill Albert Donald Cardiff 11a 679

And then there's this one

Marriages Dec 1907 (>99%)
DONALD John Thomas Cardiff 11a 850
KINGSTON Ellen Cardiff 11a 850
MORGAN John Cardiff 11a 850

One bride missing


HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Sep 2012 18:54

1911 census from a tree on A

Name: Rose Donald
Age in 1911: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation to Head: Daughter-in-law
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Cardiff, Ely
Civil parish: Wenvoe
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: Twynyrodyn Wenvoe Nr Cardiff
Marital Status: Widowed
Years Married: 1
Estimated Marriage Year: 1910
Occupation: Servant (domestic)
Registration district: Cardiff
Registration District Number: 588
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas
ED, institution, or vessel: 32
Household schedule number: 45
Piece: 32209
Household Members:
Name Age
John Donald 64
Margaret Donald 62
Rose Donald 21
Lillian Donald 2
John Donald 12


HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Sep 2012 19:03

Marriage 21 December 1907 Rose Smith to John Thomas Donald - father Thomas Smith (labourer) her age 19 - one of the witnesses is a J Clark (on Cheryl's A tree)


MarieCeleste Report 5 Sep 2012 19:05

I think this is the missing bride from that 1907 marriage:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1907
SMITH Rose Cardiff 11a 350

Think the page should be 850

So where does the Clark come in? Can't be a previous marriage as she'd only be 16 in 1907 (assuming birth date on death is correct). Perhaps her mother remarried and she was known by, and used, stepfather's surname for a while.


MarieCeleste Report 5 Sep 2012 19:10

Could this be her in 1911 having already lost first husband?

DONALD, John Head Married M 64 1847 Tailor Lanc Warrington Llanidloes
DONALD, Margaret Wife Married35 years F 62 1849 Mongomeryshire
DONALD, Lillian Granddaughter F 2 1909 Twynyrodyn Wenvoe
DONALD, John Grandson M 12 1899 School Twynyrodyn Wenvoe
DONALD, Rose Daughter In Law Widow F 21 1890 Servant Domestic Ely Cordiff

RG number: RG14 Piece: 32209
Reference: RG14PN32209 RG78PN1849 RD588 SD6 ED32 SN45
Registration District: Cardiff
Sub District: St Nicholas
Enumeration District: 32
Parish: Wenvoe

Address: Twynyrodyn Wenvoe County: Glamorganshire


HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Sep 2012 19:11

MC we posted together - info above is from a photo of the marriage cert (from Cheryl's A tree)...her father was Thomas Smith so assume that must have been her maiden name.

Age on marriage cert is 19 years which suggests her dob on the death certificate is not correct



HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Sep 2012 19:12

Yes that's the census I posted earlier off Cheryl's A tree....


MarieCeleste Report 5 Sep 2012 19:13

... or she fibbed about her age on marriage!


HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Sep 2012 19:15

mmm...we seem to have a range from 1890 to 1892 but I can't find a birth that matches at all!


HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Sep 2012 19:58

Cheryl do you have her marriage certificate to Albert or Richard?Just wondered who her father was shown as.

You say her maiden name on the marriage certificate to Richard in 1919 was Clark - the GRo index indicates she married him as Hill. So where are you getting this info from?



Cheryl Report 6 Sep 2012 13:15

Wow...I can' believ how many replies I've had to my request for help! Overwhelmed.
Where to start... I always believe my greatGran Rose was 19 when she married and 92 when she died. But the only records I can find are the one's you guys have found...and they show her as being 16/17 when she married and 88 when she died. The death record is def correct as I visited her grave at Thornhill and she is buried with my aunt Joan. Rosina (or Rose as she appears on some certs) was married 3 times & widowed twice to my knowledge. First to John Thomas Donald (he died in 1909 stomach cancer-I have the death cert) and her second husband (Albert Hill died in the 1st world war) her 3rd husband was Richard Morgan but I don't have any info on him.
The difficulty I'm having is finding Rose/Rosina's ancestors as she appears as Rose SMITH on her wedding cert to my g.grandfather (John Thomas Donald) and also on my grandmother's birth cert but Rose/Rosina is coming up as a CLARK on her death cert and 2nd and 3rd marriages. The father on her first marriage cert is Thomas Smith and he was a labourer.
I haven't been able to find a Smith family on the census who lived in the Ely Cowbridge Road area of Cardiff (Rose's birth place a stated on wedding cert


AnnCardiff Report 6 Sep 2012 13:20

onlt know if this is helpful but I have Kelly's Directory for Cardiff 1970 and in Cowbridge Road West, Ely, which is an extremely long road there is only one Smith - Michael C Smith, 349 Cowbridge Road West


Cheryl Report 6 Sep 2012 13:25

I think the tree you guys have been looking at on Ancestry is my family tree.
Made a mistake about the 2nd and 3rd marriages...she isn't coming up as Clark on them!!! She is coming up as Clark on Vera Nellie, Albert Norman Henry and Joan's birth certs. I know I'm tracing the same person as Nellie, Norman and Joan are all my great aunts and uncles - and their sister lillian Maud was my grandmother- unfortunately they have all died so not possible to check anything out with them :-(