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That's interesting, Yvonne.
Thanks for letting us know.

But strange about the sign saying "Est. 1909", as you say.

Maybe that's when it got a full licence, and became a pub rather than just a beerhouse ??
I don't know - just guessing wildly.



"Pubs and Beerhouses – What’s the difference? Well, we have taken the word ‘pub’ to mean any establishment which sold alcoholic beverages regardless of whether they were an inn, a hotel, a beerhouse or any other place which required a full licence from 1830 to sell all types of beer, wine and spirits.
A beerhouse, on the other hand, under the 1830 Beer Act was only licensed to sell beer, and not wine or spirits."
https://www.wivenhoehistory.org.uk/content/topics/wivenhoe-history-group/projects/wivenhoes-pubs/pubs-and-beerhouses-whats-the-difference

Have received a reply from Wigan Archives. Apparently, the Jolly Nailor Beerhouse was in operation at 32 Market Street until 1929. In 1929 the brewery got permission to rebuild it and I guess this is when it moved to the other location. It was upgraded to a public house in 1951.
Wigan Archives couldn't give an explanation for the sign but suggested it might have something to do with the brewery.

You're welcome - good luck!

I've written off to the link you gave me and hopefully they can give us some answers. I looked at the 1921 census and the pub is still at 32 Market Street with the same person running it as in 1911. It seems that things changed between 1921 and 1939. Hopefully, Wigan Archives can give some explanation.
Thanks for your help.

Think you read my mind??
I was going to contact somebody over there, thanks for the link, I’ll follow it up.

Size may have been a factor.
The present address looks like a "proper" big pub building, whereas the old address is a much smaller terraced property.

Or the original business may have closed down, and a new one started, using the old name.

Perhaps the owners/operators of the present Jolly Nailor could tell you some of the history.

Or try contacting Wigan Archives Service:

https://archives.wigan.gov.uk/contact

Thanks so much. Does seem strange that it changed location though.
I’ll try to follow up on it.

I posted a link to the present Jolly Nailor, at its current address.

The old address, 32 Market Street, now seems to be a beauty salon / barber's shop.

You can add details of the Jolly Nailor at the old address on this site if you wish -
https://www.closedpubs.co.uk/lancashire/atherton.html

I think it’s strange that there doesn’t seem to be anything on Google. Not really sure what to make of.
Thanks.

There's still a pub of that name in Atherton, though now at 20-22 Market Street:

https://whatpub.com/pubs/LSE/12941/jolly-nailor-inn-atherton


I don't see 32 Market Street in 1939.

This MAY be an unnamed pub at 23/25 Market Street in 1939:

Thomas Houghton
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name Thomas Houghton
Gender Male
Marital Status Married
Birth Date 6 Nov 1887
Residence Date 1939
Address 23/25 Garden Place
Residence Place Atherton, Lancashire, England
Occupation License Beer Retailer <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Line Number 15
Schedule Number 19
Sub Schedule Number 1
Enumeration District Ntkg
Borough Atherton
Registration district 460-1
Inferred Spouse
Susan M Houghton
Inferred Children
Thomas Houghton
John Houghton
Household Members (Name) Gender
Thomas Houghton Male - Licensed beer retailer
Susan M Houghton Female - Assistant to licensed beer retailer
Thomas Houghton Male
John Houghton Male
Josephine Allmond Female - Barmaid, beerhouse
Margaret Bowe Female - Barmaid, beerhouse
Alice Bell Female

It's not clear from the image if it's 23/25 Garden Place as transcribed, or 23/25 Market Street as it appears to be, if the image is correct.

Same man running it in 1911, and it's called the Jolly Naylor:

Ralph Hope
in the 1911 England Census
Name Ralph Hope
Age in 1911 56
Estimated Birth Year abt 1855
Relation to Head Head
Gender Male
Birth Place Atherton, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Atherton
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Street Address 32 Market St
Marital Status Married
Occupation Beerhouse Keeper <<<<<<<<<<<
Registration District Number 460
Sub-registration district Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel 03
Piece 23233
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Ralph Hope 56 Head
Mary Ellen Hop 56 Wife
Maggie Clerk 19 Servant

In 1901 it's probably still a pub, though not named - the address is just 32 Market Street.

Ralph Hofoe
in the 1901 England Census
Name Ralph Hofoe [Hope]
Age 45
Estimated Birth Year abt 1856
Relation to Head Head
Gender Male
Spouse Mary Ellen Hofoe
Birth Place Atherton, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Atherton
Search Photos
View blank form
Ecclesiastical parish St John the Baptist
Town Atherton
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Registration district Leigh
Sub-registration district Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel 04
Neighbors
Piece 3595
Folio 90
Page number 2
Household schedule number 15
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Ralph Hofoe 45 Head - innkeeper <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mary Ellen Hofoe 46 Wife
Betsy Smith 15 Servant

BUT -

in 1891 it's again the Jolly Nailer, but only at 32 Market Street;

Margaret Blakemore
in the 1891 England Census
Name Margaret Blakemore
Gender Female
Age 28
Relationship Head
Birth Year 1863
Child
Albert Blakemore
Birth Place Much Hoole, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Atherton
Ecclesiastical parish St John
Residence Place Atherton, Atherton, Lancashire, England
Registration district Leigh
Sub registration district Atherton
ED, Institution or Vessel 2
Neighbors
Piece 3089
Folio 28
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Margaret Blakemore 28 Head , widow - licensed victualler
Albert Blakemore 5 Son
Ellen Beard 18 Servant

The address for the Jolly Nailer in 1871 was 32 & 34 Market Street, Atherton.

It appears not to have been a pub by 1881.

William Knowles
in the 1881 England Census
Name William Knowles
Relationship to Head Son
Father William Knowles
Mother Nancy Knowles
Gender Male
Where born Atherton, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Atherton
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Street Address 32 and 34 Market St
Registration district Leigh
ED, institution, or vessel 2
Neighbors
Piece 3808
Folio 35
Page number 16
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
William Knowles 47 Head - coal miner
Nancy Knowles 46 Wife
Mary Ann Knowles 16 Daughter - cotton [something]
Thomas Knowles 11 Son
Joseph Knowles 11 Son
Maria Ellen Knowles 7 Daughter
William Knowles Son
Elizabeth A. Charlton 30 Niece - domestic servant
Nancy Charlton 4 Niece
Thomas Dootson 19 Nephew - [something] in a coal mine
Ellen Dootson 17 Niece - factory hand
William Marsh 50 Boarder - nail maker

I'm doing a follow-up on this and not sure if it's the right place to do it.
In 1861 James Seddon is shown as Victualler of the Jolly Nailor Beer House. James died in 1870 and the pub was then run by his daughter Jemima Seddon, as shown in 1871 census. She died in 1875 so I'm not sure what happened after that. I looked up the Jolly Nailor Pub and a sign outside shows a cobbler hitting a nail into a boot and below it says established 1909. I've tried googling this but can't find anything. Any suggestions how I can find out about this (I don't live in UK).

Thanks ArgyllGran. I agree that James could just be visiting but I just thought it strange that the whole family was split like that at the time of the census. I wondered if they’d had to give up their home for some reason after Maria died.

As the census info only reflects the situation on one particular date, it may be that James was just visiting his mother-in-law that night.

Or perhaps it was for work reasons.

The family is not necessarily "split up" in any permanent sense.


For our reference:

Sarah Redfern
in the 1851 England Census
Name: Sarah Redfern
Age: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1808
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Lancr Atherton
Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 1k
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 78
Piece: 2230
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Redfern 43
Hannah Seddon 19 sister
Nancy Seddon 14 sister
Jemima Seddon 13 - sister
Jane Seddon 8 - sister
James Bullough 25 - lodger
Mary Bullough 26 - lodger
Sarah Bullough 1 - lodger



James Seddon
in the 1851 England Census
Name: James Seddon
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Relation: Son-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: Westhoughton, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Atherton
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Leigh
Sub-registration district: West Leigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 133
Piece: 2205
Folio: 275
Page Number: 34
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Redfern 72
John Redfern 50 - son, widower
Jane Redfern 44 - daughter, unmarried
Jame [ Jane ] Redfern 11 - grand-daughter
James Seddon 45 - son-iin-law, widower
B Platt 46 - lodger

There could be any number of reasons - I'm sure you can think of some

I'm adding this to my old post, just for background.

My James Seddon was born in Atherton, Lancs., about 1805. He married Maria Redfearn in 1828. Maria died about 1849 and James re-married to Mary Walls in October 1853.
Now, in 1851 James would've been a widower and for some reason the family is split up in the census.
James is living with his mother-in-law, Mary Redfearn, in Guest Fold, but his children are living with Sarah Redfearn.
My question is - can anyone suggest why they would be split up.

Thanks.

Thanks again everybody. Reggie, that certainly makes sense and would explain why he appears on so many. I think I do agree with Madmeg though, even though the other findings are understandable, I don't think anything can be safely deduced. Things get so difficult once you go pre-1837 don't they. Assuming I found their deaths how would I go about finding their graves, since I live outside the UK. Would I have to contact the various cemeteries.

Yvonne