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Samuel family - rotherhithe

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MarieCeleste Report 2 Feb 2013 20:38

HLH - there are divorce records but it's very highly unlikely that ordinary people divorced back then, it was really only the wealthy who could afford it. Can't see a record for them.

The name on a baptism may not be the same as the name on a certificate. Have you looked for a registration of her birth?

Always best to quote GRO reference when ordering if you find it:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Dec 1884
Norman Agnes Ellen Greenwich 1d 1041

Where and when did Mary Ann Bennett marry Thomas Samuel?


MarieCeleste Report 2 Feb 2013 20:56

Here's the 1891 for reference:

NORMAN, Thomas Head Married M 39 1852 General Labourer Rotherhithe
NORMAN, Mary Anne Wife Married F 40 1851 Ironer Romford, Essex
SAMUEL, Florence Daughter Single F 19 1872 Ironer Romford, Essex
SAMUEL, Joe W Son Single M 17 1874 Leather Finisher Romford, Essex
NORMAN, George Son Single M 10 1881 Deptford
NORMAN, Ellen A Daughter Single F 6 1885 Deptford
SAMUEL, Charlotte E Daughter Single F 13 1878 Deptford

Piece: 498 Folio: 45 Page: 6
Registration District: Greenwich
Civil Parish: St Paul Deptford

Address: 260, Lower Road, St Paul Deptford County: London

How do you know MaryAnn was her mother? Could the Norman children not be Thomas' from a previous marriage?


MarieCeleste Report 2 Feb 2013 21:07

I see how it looks with this baptism:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Ellen Agnes Norman
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 7 Nov 1884
Father's Name: Thomas Norman - labourer
Mother's Name: Mary Anne Norman
Parish or Poor Law Union: Rotherhithe St Katharine
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Lived 2 Beaconsfield Terrace.


MarieCeleste Report 2 Feb 2013 21:17

Thomas Norman was a bachelor on marriage in 1891:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Thomas Norman, bachelor. A labourer
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Age: 35
Spouse Name: Mary Ann Samuel, widow
Spouse Age: 38
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 2 Aug 1891
Parish: Walworth All Saints
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas William Stafford Norman - Lighterman
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Barnett - Labourer.
Register Type: Parish Register

Address for both stated as 9 Portland Street.

Witnesses Robert Hazle and Mary Ann Hazle.


MarieCeleste Report 2 Feb 2013 21:29

It's quite likely that Mary Ann left Thomas Samuel and set up home with Thomas Norman. Children registered in the name of Norman as he acknowledged paternity. They married after they knew Thomas Samuel had died.


HLH Report 3 Feb 2013 17:26

Guess you must be right there, MarieCeleste. she was on the 1881 Census still with Thomas Samuel, but suppose she could have left him any time. The mystery still lies with just what father Ellen belonged to - I'm hoping the BC will confirm it.

Its definitely the right folks as one of the witnesses, Robert Hazle, boarded with Maryann & Thomas Samuel on the 1881 Census.