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When Did Uncle Jim Go to India Interesting Update

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 2 Apr 2013 21:28

PLEASE GO TO LAST POST!

I hope I haven't asked this before :-(

My grandmother's brother James Neish Irvine, born Dundee in 1885, moved with his parents and siblings to Newport Monmouthshire. I can't find him in 1911 census.

I know that he had a Japanese fiancee and that they sailed to be married in Japan but she died on the way and he came back to Newport.

I have no idea of the timing other than my cousin, born in 1929 remembers dressing up in kimonos!!

Is there any way of verifying this?

Jude

Vicci

Vicci Report 2 Apr 2013 21:57

1901 for info
IRVINE, Elizabeth Head Widow F 47 1854 Caretaker Of Engineers Institute (@ 132)
Scotland VIEW
IRVINE, Isabella Daughter Single F 18 1883 Barmaid
Scotland VIEW
IRVINE, James Son Single M 16 1885 Iron Moulder
Scotland VIEW
IRVINE, Elizabeth Daughter F 10 1891 School
Newport, Monmouthshire VIEW

Piece: 4958

Folio: 82

Page: 3

Registration District: Newport

Civil Parish: Newport

Municipal Borough:

Address: 132, Commercial Road, Newport

County: Monmouthshire

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 2 Apr 2013 22:06

1911 ?
IRVINE, James Married ? 26 1885 Forfar Forfarshire (Single on image)
RG number: RG14
Piece: 34975
Reference: RG14PN34975 RD640 SD6 ED1 SN9999
Registration District:
Sub District:
Enumeration District: 1
Parish:
Address: H M T Rewa C/o Embarkatim Staff Office
County: Royal Navy at Sea and in ports abroad
H M T Rewa C/o Embarkatim Staff Office, SHIP: HMT REWA, EMBARKATION STAFF OFFICE, HAMPSHIRE, SOUTHAMPTON
Military details: L C 2 West Kent Rt

Chris :)

Vicci

Vicci Report 2 Apr 2013 22:39

Name: Mr J N Irvine
Gender: Male
Age: 47
Birth Date: abt 1886
Departure Date: 30 Sep 1933
Port of Departure: London, England
Destination Port: Colombo, Sri Lanka
Ship Name: Orford
Search Ship Database: Search the 'Orford' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: Orient Line
Official Number: 14026
Master: A L Owens


address "Normanhurst" Chepstow Road Newport
occupation police inspector
unaccompanied
destination India
last permanent residence "other part of the Britsh Empire"

Vicci

Vicci Report 2 Apr 2013 22:59

same guy arriving from Australia in 1926


Name: James Irvine
Birth Date: abt 1886
Age: 40
Port of Departure: Brisbane, Australia
Arrival Date: 13 May 1926
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Melbourne
[Sydney]
[Adelaide]
[Colombo]
[Plymouth]
Ship Name: Ormonde
Search Ship Database: View the 'Ormonde' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: Orient Steam Navigation Company Ltd
Official Number: 141866

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 3 Apr 2013 07:17

Oh Vicci! Super! Normanhurst was my grandfather's house (Jame's sister) and where my dad was born.

Thanks ever so!

Chris will look at that military and see what it says

Jude

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 3 Apr 2013 07:41

Oh Vicci...that incoming one he has wife Yuki with him (I knew her name was Yuki but not that they married...or at least purported to!)

Thank you so much!

Jude

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 3 Apr 2013 08:25

Well I have constructed a picture of sorts but there are pieces missing!

The couple arrived in London in May 1926 having departed from Brisbane (I assume that they arrived in Brisbane at some point from the Far East). They left again in November of that year.

And that's the last I find of Yuki.

In 1933 James travelled alone from Brisbane to London in March/April and then in September of that year travelled back to Colombo. I next have him travelling back from Brisbane in 1935.

So sometime between November 1926 and 1933 the couple must have travelled back to Wales - my cousin was born in 1929 and she remembers Yuki. And then they must have travelled back before 1933 and, if the story my cousin remembers is correct, Yuki died on the voyage.

Jude

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 3 Apr 2013 08:35

Outgoing
Name: Mrs Y IRVINE
Date of departure: 13 November 1926
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Colombo, Sri Lanka (Ceylon)
Passenger destination: Colombo, Sri Lanka (Ceylon)
Date of Birth: 1886 (calculated from age)
Age: 40
Marital status: Married
Sex: Female
Occupation: Home Duties
Passenger recorded on: Pag3 14 of 39
Mr J H IRVINE
Ship: ORAMA
Official Number: 146024
Master's name: Capt W S Shelford
Steamship Line: Orient.
Where bound: Australia
Square feet: 26388
Registered tonnage: 11942
Passengers on voyage: 1391
(Police Inspector, address, Normanhurst, Chepstow Road)

Chris :)

edits (looking at Incoming Images 1926 and 1933, Country of last Residence given as India)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 3 Apr 2013 08:59

Yes Chris I found that one ..."they left again in November of that year". My problem is that that is the last I find of her travelling and, if my cousin's memories are correct and she met Yuki then she had to be around in the early 30's (even then it's stretching the imagination to believe a four year old had such memories!)

I'm seeing my dad later - he was born in 1926 - and I'll see what he remembers!

I just know at some point they went off together and she died on the way out so he (eventually) came back alone.

Downloaded the census off FMP - not entirely convinced it's him but can't find anything better! I am sure he was in the Navy be it RN or Merchant (and that's how he met Yuki). I didn't know he was a police inspector though - another question for my dad!

Jude

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Apr 2013 09:53

Here's a link about records of births / deaths at sea.

http://www.genguide.co.uk/source/civil-registration--birth-marriages-amp-deaths-at-sea-overseas/194/

Dea

Dea Report 3 Apr 2013 09:56

Jude,

It is not impossible for her to remember things from the age of 4.

I have vivid memories of my aunt and uncle's wedding when I was 'just' 3. - I can describe being carried, high up on someone' shoulders under an arch of flowers and wearing a pretty dress. Then afterwards I can describe the room we were in and what was happening.

I also remember the party my grandparents had for their golden wedding when I was only just 4.

In fact, I can remember and describe lots of things from around that age a lot easier than I can remember what I went upstairs for 2 minutes ago these days ;-) :-D :-D

Dea Xxx

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 3 Apr 2013 11:29

Argyllgran...thanks for the link. Didn't help me with Yuki but I finally found the deaths at sea of my great grandfather and my grand uncle!

Dea...I don't doubt it :-) ....I'll see what my dad says. My cousin is adamant about dressing up in her kimonos at his house which later became her father's house.

Jude

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 3 Apr 2013 12:04

Argyllgran - I cannot thank you enough.

Having downloaded the "death at Sea" of my great grandfather, I Googled the vessel name and Gibraltar 1893 and this is what I came up with

She arrived at Gibraltar on the 12th November with 10 ton of coal in her bunkers, and having there taken in 160 tons of coal, she left for Rotterdam on the same day, since which date she has not been heard of.

On the 29th November 1893 the body of James Laurence, the steward, was found in the Chenal du Four to the S.E. of Ushant, and about the same time the body of a lad was found on the Isle de Sein, and a lifebuoy marked Ropner & Co. was also found at Ushant. On the 10th December 1893 three bodies with lifebelts round them, marked Ropner & Co., were picked up near Penmarch, and early in January 1894 two more bodies were found on the Isle de Sein.

According to the evidence, this vessel was in good and seaworthy condition as regards her hull, machinery, and equipment. We were not able to ascertain her draught on leaving Gibraltar, but having regard to the amount and weight of cargo and bunker coal which she carried, we have no reason to doubt that she had the freeboard required by the Committee of Lloyds. We have also come to the conclusion that as laden she had sufficient stability.

We should here also refer to the fact that her chief engineer had sailed in her for a period of 12 years. which we assume he would not have done unless he was satisfied with her behaviour.

My great grandfather was the 2nd engineer

T^hank you :-)

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Apr 2013 13:00

You're welcome!
What fascinating stuff! No wonder genealogy research is so addictive.

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 4 Apr 2013 08:56

Well I saw my dad yesterday. My dad was born July 1926 and, while he knows of Yuki, he does not ever remember seeing her.

He always thought there were whispers and rumours that something "was not quite right".

Anyway, looking through the immigration/emigration records, it is always mentioned that he lived in/was going to live in India...so I tried FHS India marriages and look what I found

parents: James Irvine
spouse: Oyuki Takamoto
Name James Neish Irvine
Birth Date 1886
Birthplace
Age 28
Spouse's Name Oyuki Takamoto
Spouse's Birth Date 1886
Spouse's Birthplace
Spouse's Age 28
Event Date 26 Oct 1914
Event Place Calcutta, Bengal, India
Father's Name James Irvine
Mother's Name
Spouse's Father's Name Genzo Takamoto
Spouse's Mother's Name
Race
Marital Status
Previous Wife's Name
Spouse's Race
Spouse's Marital Status
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name
Indexing Project (Batch) Number M75046-2
System Origin India-EASy
GS Film number 527909
Reference ID

Whoo hoo!

I am assuming he was a police inspector in India. Not quite sure when he went out there though - that's the next challenge!

The last record I have of him in Wales - that I am absolutely sure is him - is a photograph at my grandparents' wedding in October 1902

Jude

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 4 Apr 2013 09:05

What a good find Jude, well done there.

Chris :)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 4 Apr 2013 20:55

OK...so He was at my gran's wedding in October 1902.

I can't find him (for sure) in 1911

He marries in India in 1914

So just when did he go to India? I have found (on FMP) a Mr J Irvine (Gent!!!) of indeterminate age travelling from London to Calcutta in 1909 - I can't prove this is him but I can't come up with anything better.

I can find him coming back in 1935 and I know he was at a wedding in Newport in 1940 (pix to prove!)

So can anyone find anything else?

My dad seemed to think he came back for good on the Mauritania?

I also have a photo of him and my uncle dated "about 1930" - when according to me he was abroad. Trying to tie this down a bit but looking at the photo he does look about 10 years younger than he does at the wedding in 1940 :-S

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Apr 2013 13:10

ok some more hearsay...my dad remembers his mother telling him that Uncle Jim was in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in India.

They were certainly in India (Dinapore) when WW1 broke out in July 1914. However, as Uncle Jim married in October 1914, he must have left the regiment (if he was ever in it). My gran also told my dad her other brother, Robert, died in the Tay Bridge Disaster. At that time he was only nine and, in 1891 he is present at the same census as my gran!! So pinch of salt needed :-)

Any suggestions as to how I might find out if indeed he was posted to India with the regiment and then became a police officer over there?

In searching found a great picture of the regiment in India with a HUGE snake! Not sure which year it is and can't see anyone who resembles him :-) :-D

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Apr 2013 13:10

ok some more hearsay...my dad remembers his mother telling him that Uncle Jim was in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in India.

They were certainly in India (Dinapore) when WW1 broke out in July 1914. However, as Uncle Jim married in October 1914, he must have left the regiment (if he was ever in it). My gran also told my dad her other brother, Robert, died in the Tay Bridge Disaster. At that time he was only nine and, in 1891 he is present at the same census as my gran!! So pinch of salt needed :-)

Any suggestions as to how I might find out if indeed he was posted to India with the regiment and then became a police officer over there?

In searching found a great picture of the regiment in India with a HUGE snake! Not sure which year it is and can't see anyone who resembles him :-) :-D