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National Archives

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

bighen

bighen Report 21 Jun 2013 21:24

Can anyone tell if I can go to the Nat Archives and find a birth with no mothers name but I have year of birth, fathers name but no area on one, but have area born year and fathers name ,have marriage certs on both.Thanks

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 21 Jun 2013 21:30

Hello bighen - have you actually found birth records for the people on FreeBMD? (or any other site with birth index)

EDIT:

This is on National Archives website:
"Birth, marriage and death certificates are not kept at The National Archives and cannot be viewed or ordered here."

Providing the people in question aren't still living why not put the details on here and we'll help you try and find the birth records so you can order certificates from GRO.

bighen

bighen Report 21 Jun 2013 21:35

Hi Marie Celeste.....no got the year of birth from the marriage certs and only on one census records but can find no trace of the other one apart from 1 in about 1924 looked on every site through thousands of names on censuses no joy iv spend weeks on them

No not still living

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 21 Jun 2013 21:37

Well, do you want to give us the details?

bighen

bighen Report 21 Jun 2013 21:41

Think iv already posted this one ,Frances/Fanny Murray born 1856 Kentish Town I have all censuses and marriage on her.Her fathers name was Robert Edward Murray occupation Carpenter nothing on him either.

Second one is Ellen Constance Mary Day born 1900 fathers name John Day his occupation was a Decorator have her marriage cert she died 1930 no info on that record.

Gwyn in Kent

Gwyn in Kent Report 21 Jun 2013 21:58

Could Ellen have been older....or perhaps this one connects to the family in some other way...?

Births Dec 1892

Day Helena Constance M ... Kingston 2a 290

bighen

bighen Report 21 Jun 2013 22:03

No I saw that one its def 1900-1901 she was we think an only child

Gwyn in Kent

Gwyn in Kent Report 21 Jun 2013 22:13

This is her....?
Deaths Jun 1930
Hoskins Ellen C M ..28 ..Willesden 3a 288


Who were the witnesses at her marriage...?

Gwyn

bighen

bighen Report 21 Jun 2013 22:18

Yes that's her they were a lodger James Hunt and mother in law Edith Hoskins who was also the informant on the death record.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 22 Jun 2013 00:33

bighen - regarding Frances/Fanny Murray, quite possible her birth as never registered. There were no penalties pre 1874 if a birth wasn't registered so many weren't.

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 22 Jun 2013 11:00

In your tree on Ancestry you don't appear to have the 1861 census? Have you found her in 1861?

Jude

bighen

bighen Report 22 Jun 2013 12:25

I maybe thought that MarieCeleste,and Jude no cant find her on 1861 anywhere very strange as cant find her father either.
Wasn't sure we would get any further but I really appreciate all your help x

Pam

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 22 Jun 2013 12:43

Is this Ellen? Her father's a house painter:


1911 England Census about Ellen Day
Name: Ellen Day
Age in 1911: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1901
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Paddington
Civil Parish: Paddington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 9 Hasborough St
Occupation: SCHOOL
Registration District: Paddington
Registration District Number: 1
Sub-registration District: Paddington Central
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Piece: 58
Household Members:
Name Age
John Day 38
Matilda Day 44
John Day 15
George A Day 14
Ellen Day 10
Lilian Day 7

Here's the family in 1901:


1901 England Census about Matilda Day
Name: Matilda Day
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Day
Gender: Female
Where born: Paddington, London, England

Civil Parish: Paddington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration District: Paddington
Sub-registration District: St Mary, Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 203
Piece: 2
Folio: 117
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
John Day 29
Matilda Day 35
George Day 5
John Day 3
Alfred Burder 14 - son
James Bradshaw 55

This starts a whole other mystery, which I know is not relevant to Bighen's OP, but I got sidetracked onto it for ages last night. These people have nothing to do with my tree, and I'm not asking anyone to solve the mystery - I'm just throwing it into the pot! Felt I had to share it with someone!
This seems to be Matilda and (her son?) Alfred in 1891:


1891 England Census about Alfred Burder
Name: Alfred Burder
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Gender: Male
Where born: Paddington, London, England

Civil Parish: Paddington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration District: Paddington
Sub-registration District: St Mary Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 5a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2
Folio: 7
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
William Gill 56
Louisa Gill 40 - think this should be 46, mistranscribed.
Matilda Gill 25 - born c1866, Marylebone, listed as married, then that's scored out & replaced by "S"
Louisa Gill 27
Alfred Burder 4 - no relationship listed

I can't find any marriage between Matilda Gill and John Day, 1891 - 1901.
But there's this marriage - right husband, time-frame, place:
Marriages Sep 1895 (>99%)
Day John Paddington 1a 81
Isaacs Matilda Paddington 1a 81

There's also this marriage:

Marriages Sep 1884 (>99%)
BURDER Alfred Kensington 1a 242
Isaacs Matilda Kensington 1a 242

And this looks like Alfred junior's birth:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Alfred William Burder
Name: Alfred William Burder
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Feb 1887
Father's Name: Alfred Burder
Mother's Name: Matilda Burder
Parish or Poor Law Union: Paddington St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Westminster
Register Type: Parish Registers

Can't find a birth for Matilda Gill in the right place c1866, but there are two Matilda Isaacs:
Births Sep 1865 (>99%)
ISAACS Matilda Whitechapel 1c 381
ISAACS Matilda Marylebone 1a 524

So (hypothetical question), is Matilda Gill the same person as Matilda Isaacs/Burder, or does she just happen to have the same YOB & POB? (And some connection with Alfred Burder Jr.)
If she's the same person, did her parents change their surname (where are they in earlier years?), or is William her stepfather - in which case I can't find a marriage for William and Louisa - unless Louisa was married before:
Marriages Mar 1862 (>99%)
Brook Charles Henry Stepney 1c 651
Isaac Louisa Stepney 1c 651

Marriages Sep 1867 (>99%)
BROOKE Louisa Mary A Marylebone 1a 902
Gill William Marylebone 1a 902

In which case, were Matilda & sister Louisa illegitimate?

And so it goes on - endlessly fascinating!
As I said, I'm not asking anyone to follow this up - it's not relevant to Bighen's question.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 22 Jun 2013 12:47

Back to the subject -
a couple of possibilities for Ellen's birth:

Births Jun 1899 (>99%)
Day Ellen Poplar 1c 613

Births Dec 1899 (>99%)
Day Ellen Stepney 1c 364

Gwyn in Kent

Gwyn in Kent Report 22 Jun 2013 12:51

argyllgran
.......Glad I'm not the only one who gets drawn in to other people's trees.

You wouldn't believe how many John DAY, decorators, I found last night, when trying to help with this......

Gwyn

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 22 Jun 2013 12:52

Have you discounted these for Fanny?

Births Mar 1857 (>99%)
Murray Fanny St George in the East 1c 436
Murray Frances Elizabeth Poplar 1c 663

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 22 Jun 2013 12:56

Gwyn -
It's so dangerously addictive - should come with a health warning!
I waste hours on end with this stuff!

Potty

Potty Report 22 Jun 2013 13:16

Mystery deepens!

The Isaacs/Burder marriage is on Ancestry:

Brides father: William Isaacs, Tradesman

Witnesses are William Gill and Louisa Isaacs

Potty

Potty Report 22 Jun 2013 13:29

Matilda in 1881 - the address (39 Cirencester St is the same as on the 1885 marriage) - the surname does seem to change from Gill to Isaacs; Matilda is shown as Spinster on the marriage, aged 21:


1881 England Census
about Matilda Gill
Age:15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Gill
Mother's Name: Susan Gill
Gender: Female
Where born: Paddington, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Paddington
Street Address:
39 Cirencester Street
Occupation:Artificial Flower Maker
Registration District:Kensington
Sub-registration District:St Mary Paddington

William Gill 40
Susan Gill 30
Louisa Gill 17
Matilda Gill 15


ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 22 Jun 2013 13:30

Matilda's sister Louisa, and her stepfather William Gill?

Still don't see her in 1871 or 1881 with father William Isaacs.

Finallly going to step away from the computer for a while!