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It makes life so complicated lol!

Well, at least that cleared up who Muriel was. It's amazing how complicated families are when you get down to the nitty gritty. There are stories like this in every family you research - even though some people don't like to admit it!!

Kath. x

On a side note, because people keep mentioning Muriel Dorothy Joan West/
Morris ...

I have found out that Frank and Ellen Voller had a child name Dorothy, which is Daisy West's sister. Dorothy was 17 when she had Muriel Dorothy West so Muriel went to live with Frank and Ellen Voller as their child, pretending that Muriel was Daisy Wests sister - so Aunty Joan and Grandma Ellen had an Aunt Muriel themselves and believed Muriel was their aunt, but in fact she was their cousin. Muriel was an illegitimate child. We don't know who Muriels father is as apparently he left to be a sailor at sea.

When Ellen Voller died, both Joan and Muriel moved in with Daisy and Fred Graham.

I have the feeling that Joan's father will not be named on the birth certificate and it is likely that nobody will ever know.

It's the same in my own family. My grandmother had her first child in 1911 before she married my grandfather. No one ever knew who the child's father was but my grandfather brought him up as his own and he used my grandfather's surname all his life (as did his children) and the only place his actual surname at birth is recorded is on his birth and baptism certificates. We know my grandfather wasn't the father as he didn't meet my grandmother until after she had her son.

Kath. x

I think so too! I do apologise for all the confusion. Just being updated often with different stories from different people. Proper chinese whispers, very confusing. However I'm more inclined to believe that Joan lived with her grandparents until her grandmother died - as that has come from Joan and her family, whereas the idea she was disowned by them comes from Joans sister, my grandmother and our family, and well, obviously Joan will know where she lived more than the rest of us born after her!

Just really want to find out who her father is but it's difficult and confusing and to answer one piece of the jigsaw, you have to jump through other jigsaw puzzle hoops to get there! :-( :-( :-D

It's a bit confusing for us too! On the other thread you wrote that Daisy's family disowned her after Joan's birth- but you've just posted that Joan lived with her Grandparents until her Grandmother died (1933).

I think some stories/ memories have become a little skewiff over time. :-)

Let's hope Joan can tell us more

Joan is 100% alive. Her granddaughter is going to ask Joan more questions tonight and get back to me :)

Joan did live with her grandparents until her grandmother died and then Joan went back to live with Daisy and Fred.

And this distant cousin has know idea who Muriel is either but is going to ask about her too.

I know that is true but I also know of a few people who shouldn't be on it but are, so it was just an observation. I thought Joan might recognise some of the names as she would have been 13 years old at the time.

Kath. x

On the other thread I've already posted Daisy's father, Frank in 1939. His wife, Ellen, died in 1933 and he remarried in 1934 to Caroline Alice Fenn (nee Clark).

I did wonder if the story of the bigamous marriage was from Caroline Alice Clark's first marriage- (I thought maybe William Fenn might have been married before?) Caroline has a daughter (called Jean) in 1919 and she's registered under Fenn and Clark- which suggests to me that they may have separated.

Kathleen- if Joan is still living, then she shouldn't appear on the 1939 register

Could this by "Aunty Joan" in the 1939 Register:-

West Household (5 People)
17 Hercules Street , Islington, London, England

FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER

Dorothy J West 27 Mar 1926 Female Attending School Single 128 4<<<<<<<<<<<<
James West 09 Jan 1903 Male Beer Bottling Foreman Married 128 1
Ada A West 22 Jul 1903 Female Unpaid Dom D? Married 128 2
James West 16 Sep 1924 Male Iron Moulder Single 128 3
Patricia S Day (West) 18 Mar 1927 Female Attending Schoo? Single 128 5

Does Aunty Joan remember any of these names?

Kath. x

I agree with Kathleen- you have to start with the facts- sometimes, what people have been told doesn't always match the truth.

And then, if it was my family I'd just have to get Muriel's certificate- I don't know if she was Daisy's daughter or perhaps an illegitimate daughter of one of her sisters- but I would have to know! :D

Birth:
First name(s) MURIEL D J
Last name WEST
Birth year 1923
Birth quarter 4
Mother's last name WEST
District ALVERSTOKE
County Hampshire
Volume 2B Page 821

Just as a reminder you can order certificates from the GRO:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps the first thing to do is to get Joan's birth certificate:-

First name(s) JOAN D
Last name WEST
Birth year 1926
Birth quarter 2
Registration month -
Mother's last name WEST
District HACKNEY
County London
Country England
Volume 1B
Page 615

This has already been posted earlier by Shirley.

I personally would think the "bigamous marriage" was just a story to cover up the illegitimacy or there would be a record of the marriage in the index.

Kath. x

We're not 100% sure who Muriel is, I'm very confused as AustinQ will tell you ;) But my grandmother and aunty joan had their own aunt called Aunt Muriel so we're going with that for the moment but trying to find out more.

April 1926

Apparently the bigomist was arrested and sent to jail before Joan West was born. Then Joan took the surname Graham when Fred and Daisy married


My err.. cousin?? or someone said this (she's Joan's granddaughter.)

" She was born in April 1926 as a result of Daisy's first marriage to a bigamist. He was apparently arrested and imprisoned before my grandma was born Unfortunately Daisy never told her the name of her biological father and because the 'marriage' was illegal I can't find any record of it. Joan lived with her grandparents when she was young and only moved in with Daisy and Fred in Poole after her grandmother's death."

Unsure who is on the birth certificate except Daisy West.

Kathleen, if you look at the image for the 1939, it doesn't look as through Muriel had the name Graham at any time.

related thread:
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1361993?page=0

What parent's are named on Joan's birth certificate?

I think the Muriel on the 1939 register with Daisy and Fred Graham must be an older sibling of your "Aunty Joan" as she's in the same household as Daisy and Fred and has had the name West, Graham and then Morris after she married. She was born in 1923.

Kath. x

I, too have a friend whose father married her mother bigamously - he was sent to prison for the offense - but the marriage is still in the marriage index.

I would say that the birth in Hackney that Shirley posted earlier looks like a good bet for Joan. Seems that the parents did not marry - even if that is what she was told. Illegitimacy had a lot more stigma attached to it in those days.

Kath. x

A friend of mine married, the groom was a bigamist, but the GRO reference is still there. I think this has been "discussed" on recent threads.

Marrying and discovering he was a bigamist may have been a better story than no Father to name.

Possibly ???

Births Jun 1926
Webb Joan D Webb Hackney 1b 615
West Joan D West Hackney 1b 615

This would indicate the parents weren't married but the father is named on the birth cert

So if this is her then there was no marriage

Do you know Joan's actual birthdate

It may be possible to narrow it done on FreeBMD with mmn west