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Abby

I have grandad's birth certificate and it is as you say, no father identified. Whether William was the biological father, I can only guess as he did not marry Maria until after my grandad was born.

I do remember my granddad telling us all that sometime before the war (II), he walked from Rotherham to Byfield to see if he could find any relatives ( Maria's parents). He tracked down the cottage where they had at one time lived, but a large, gruff man chased him off saying "There's nothing for you here " !!

Kath,

Good thinking, I did a bit more research and it suggests that the Byfield Ironstone Quarry started production in 1915.
However, if there was ironstone in the area, he may be working nearb.

UPDATE:
There is a possible link. The ironstone mined at Byfield was Marlstone and sold to Parkgate Iron and Steelworks in Sheffield just in the area where William Sands (and his father John) at one time lived and worked.

I think this is something that will forever remain a mystery.

Kind regards and thanks

John

Copied from the Wikipedia page for Byfield, Northampton (might be a reason for the move from Middlesbrough):-

"Byfield was also home to the an ironstone railway".

Middlesbrough also had the railway, so it would be an easy move and he could have had a better job on the railways perhaps but still working with iron.

Kath. x

john

thomas adam walter is not a sands

no father named on baptism

you need to buy his birth record




Births Mar 1888 (>99%)
THORNTON Thomas Adams W Daventry 3b 149

Kathleen

I think that is John's death as I saw in the register he was living in Carlisle Street, an address that appears in other records, so I think it is safe to assume it is he, thank you

Abby,
Those details are all correct and they trace my GGrandfathers journey and my Grandads birth and birthplace.

I could never work out what would take a poor, illiterate ironworks labourer down from Middlesbrough to a rural village (Byefield) in Northampton.

If anyone can work that out, then this forum has genius within it. :-)

Field Value
County Northamptonshire
Place (link for place information) Byfield
Church name Holy Cross
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 44
Baptism date 01 Apr 1888
Person forename Thomas Adams Walter
Person sex M
Mother forename Maria
Mother surname ADAMS - THORNTON
Witness
Witness
Register note
Transcriber notes

THORNTON, THOMAS ADAMS WALTER - Order
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in DAVENTRY Volume 03B Page 119

????



Births Mar 1888 (>99%)
THORNTON Thomas Adams W Daventry 3b 149

Field Value
County Northamptonshire
Place (link for place information) Byfield
Church name Holy Cross
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 243
Marriage date 24 Mar 1889
Groom forename William
Groom surname SANDS
Groom age 30
Groom condition Bachelor
Groom abode Middlesborough
Groom parish S. Paul's
Groom occupation Labourer
Bride forename Maria
Bride surname THORNTON
Bride age 25
Bride condition Spinster
Bride abode Byfield
Groom father forename John
Groom father surname SANDS
Groom father occupation Plainer
Bride father forename Thomas Adams
Bride father surname THORNTON
Bride father occupation Labourer
Witness Ann Maria MAYCOCK
Witness John THORNTON
Register note
Transcriber notes

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1855
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
SANDS John CROSS Catharine Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church) Archives+, Manchester Central Library CATH/106/457

SANDS, WILLIAM CROSS Order
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 126

Could this be a possibility for John's burial? :-

First name(s) JOHN
Last name SANDS
Birth year 1837
Death year 1883
Age 46
Burial year 1883
Burial day 4
Burial month 3
Place SHEFFIELD
Church description BRIGHTSIDE ST THOMAS
Church denomination ANGLICAN
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Record set National Burial Index for England & Wales

and the GRO reference that seems to fit this burial:-

First name(s) JOHN
Last name SANDS
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1837
Age 46
Death quarter 1
Death year 1883
District SHEFFIELD
County Yorkshire
Volume 9C
Page 348
Country England
Record set England & Wales deaths 1837-2007

Kath. x

It all depends really on the reply to the question "what is your father's name and occupation?"

He could have just given the name and occupation without thinking to say "deceased".

Kath. x

I now have the marriage certificate for William and Christiana. It shows Williams father named John, occupation Planer. The marriage was in 1913.
If the father, John Sands was deceased, would this have been shown on the certificate as opposed to his occupation. ?

Well folks,

The copy of William Sands death certificate was delivered to day and the information I was hoping for - Place of Birth, was a field not present. This would have given me the strongest indication that this was my GGrandfather I have been trying to locate all these years.

The irony of it all is that if this William was GGrandfather, then he ended up living within spitting distance of where his son, Walter lived, and where my Dad was born. They could have even passed each other in the street without knowing.

:-D :-D :-D

Managed to spend a bit of time working this through. 98% probability GGrandad correctly identified. Just waiting on delivery of Death Certificate which should confirm his place of birth.

Again, thanks to all who helped with this final piece of the jigsaw.

Kind regards

John Sands

Alvie -

Yes that is grandad's Marriage.

I am extremely grateful for all your help and will pick this up again at the weekend when I do some more research.

You have all helped loosen the brickwork on this particular wall.

Many thanks

Night.

John

Is this your grandfather, Walter's marriage? Just wondering as this one is a tailer (as Walter was in 1911) and his father, William was a steelworker.


Yorkshire Marriages Transcription
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First name(s) Thomas Adam Walter
Last name Sands
Age 27
Birth year 1888
Marriage year 1915
Marriage date 10 Nov 1915
Marriage place Masbrough
Residence 36 Brown Street
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Sands
Spouse's first name(s) Marguerite
Spouse's last name Jarvis
Spouse's age 29
Spouse's residence 36 Brown Street
Spouse's father's first name(s) Harry Taylor
Spouse's father's last name Jarvis


1939 register


Sands Household (2 People) 107 Fitzwilliam Road , Rotherham C.B., Yorkshire (West Riding), England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Walter (Thomas A W) Sands 02 Jan 1888 Male Meter Reader Married 216 1
Marguerita Sands 12 May 1886 Female Unpaid House Duties Married 216 2

Here she is in 1911 - same address as on 1913 marriage.


1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
179 Alfred Road Sheffield, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
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Print transcription View image Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Christiana Harry Head Widow Female - 43 1868 Newport Sheffield Erg Yorks
Mary Ann Harry Daughter Single Female Law Hardener 22 1889 Brightside Sheffield Erg Yorks
Ethel Harry Daughter Single Female - 19 1892 Brightside Sheffield Erg Yorks
Nellie Harry Daughter Single Female - 8 1903 Brightside Sheffield Erg Yorks
Albert Harry Son Single Male - 5 1906 Brightside Sheffield Erg Yorks
William Griffiths Boarder Married Male Tyre Bowlers Labourer 19 1892 Wincsbank Sheffield Erg Yorks
Emma Griffiths Daughter Married Female - 20 1891 Brightside Sheffield Erg Yorks
William Griffiths Boarder Single Male - 0 1911 Brightside Sheffield Erg Yorks
William Lands Boarder Widower Male Forge Man 53 1858 Manchester England
Jack Voice Boarder Single Male Forge Man 35 1876 Leverton Nottingham Eng
Walter Hobson Boarder Single Male Bricklayer Laber 41 1870 Neepsend Sheffield Eng
Annie E Horry Boarder Single Female - 0 1911 Brightside Sheffield Eng

Christiana in 1891

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Dane Street, Brightside Bierlow, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
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Print transcription View image Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Hy Horry Head Married Male 25 1866 General Labourer Grantham, Lincolnshire, England
Christiana Horry Wife Married Female 24 1867 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Mary Amalie Horry Daughter - Female 2 1889 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Emma Horry Daughter - Female 0 1891 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Walt Hobson Brother In Law Single Male 23 1868 Bricklayers Labourer Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Savina Hobson Sister Single Female 7 1884 Scholar Sheffield, Yorkshire, England