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Hi I'm looking for Winifred Mary Sophia Gurney born 1904 - 1988 married to Richard O Markham and they lived with my Great Grandparents in Oxfordshire. She had a son Arthur Bert Gurney and she gave him away as adoption to Butler parents, he had changed his name as Nathan. I believe Winifred had another daughter but I cant find any information. Winnie died in 1988 at Croydon. Hope anyone can help?

For date of marriage:

Marriages Sep 1927 (>99%)
Gurney Winifred S M Markham Woodstock 3a 3276
Markham Richard O Gurney Woodstock 3a 3276


I don't see the birth of Arthur Bert , either as Gurney or as Markham.
Nor as Arthyr Bert, as you've spelled it.
When was he born?

Do you think the daughter was born before or after the marriage?
I don't see any birth after the marriage, unless it was in West Ham.

Births Jun 1929 (>99%)
Markham xxx [mmn Gurney] W.Ham 4a 410

[Name edited, as she may still be living .]

If born before the marriage, these are the only Gurney/gurney births in Oxfordshire 1918-27:

Births Dec 1919 (>99%)
Gurney Roy L R Gurney Wycombe 3a 1813

Births Sep 1922 (>99%)
Gurney Gwendoline M Gurney Wycombe 3a 1676

BUT Gwendoline is with her parents Arthur and Ellen in Aylesbury 1939 - so not the child you're looking for.
Roy is probably her brother, though living away from parents for work in 1939, in Chepping Wycombe, Bucks..

:

If the baby girl was also given up for adoption she may not have a registration in her own name prior to the adoption and you won’t be able to find her.

I believe Winifred Gurney gave a birth boy Arthur Bert Gurney born 1925 in Ilford Essex. I believe he was an illegimate baby without father's name on his birth certificate, she gave him away to a couple Butler, they changed his name Kenneth Nathaniel Butler. I believe Winifred and Richard had a daughter could be Alma M Markham. Did Alma married and got children?

AG will have got the information from the free website www.freebmd.org.uk
It is an excellent site and you can use it to see if Alma married and to whom, then you can look to see if they had children. When using the site do not put in middle names or initials.
You can buy Alma’s birth certificate from the GRO using the information AG has posted. That will tell you who the parents are.

Arthur D Gurney, MMN Gurney, registered JFM 1925 in Romford district

Arthur B Gurney not 'D'?
:-|

Alma may still be alive, so there's not a lot I can post here.

She doesn't seem to have been adopted.

She may have married twice, once in East Ham in 1947
then again in East Ham in 1958.

Can't be 100% sure without seeing the marriage certs.

If the 1958 marriage was for the correct woman, she and her husband were living in Devon in 2002.

I don't see their deaths in England /Wales, at least to 2021.

Was she married to Newton in 1947 in East Ham?

And who married to in 1958

Yes, Newton in 1947

Look up marriage for Alma M Newton in 1958, in FreeBMD.

Then look them up in the Electoral Rolls, under "Search" at top right of this page.
Click on the document symbol at the right of the search result to see the 2002 address.

However, that address was sold in 2010, according to Rightmove and Zoopla.

As Winifred died in London, I suppose a London-born child isn't out of the question.

Winifred Mary S Markham
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Winifred Mary S Markham
Death Age: 84
Birth Date: 19 Aug 1904
Registration Date: Oct 1988
Registration District: Croydon
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 11
Page: 1751


ADDED:
Ah, but they're in Oxfordshire in 1939.

There's one closed record with Winifred and Richard in 1939 - could maybe be Alma ??. But there's no way to find out.

Winnifred M Markham
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Winnifred M Markham [S Markham]
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 19 Aug 1904
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 104 Eastney Rd
Residence Place: Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number: 30
Schedule Number: 9
Sub Schedule Number: 4
Enumeration District: Dzeh
Borough: Chipping Norton
Registration district: Combe
Inferred Spouse:
Richard O Markham
Household Members Age
Richard O Markham 45
Winnifred M Markham 35
This record is officially closed.

This is the only Arthur Bert I can find - but he's Winifred's brother, not her son:

Death:
GURNEY, ARTHUR BERT 1908
GRO Reference: DOR Q1/1988 in OXFORD (7021C) Volume 20 Page 2790

Birth:
GURNEY, ARTHUR BERTIE mmn FISHER
GRO Reference: 1908 J Quarter in ST OLAVE BERMONDSEY Volume 01D Page 229


GURNEY, WINIFRED SOPHIA MARY mmn FISHER
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE BERMONDSEY Volume 01D Page 243


Perhaps you are confusing her brother with her son - who may well be Arthur David, as posted by ErikaH.
Romford registration district includes Ilford.

You'd need to get the birth cert to confirm one way or the other.

ADDED:
You say,
"I believe he was an illegimate baby without father's name on his birth certificate".
Does that mean you do have the birth cert - or you're just guessing about the father's name?

There is no record of a birth for Arthur B Gurney, But, have it your way,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Try looking for info yourself................................

You said he was born in Ilford……………!!!!!!!!!!

Even Ancestry, not always known for relevant/accurate suggestions, does suggest that Arthur D's birth record relates to Kenneth Nathaniel.

Kenneth Nathaniel in 1939:

Kenneth N Butler
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Kenneth N Butler
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Single
Birth Date: 2 Jan 1925
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 40 Cliff Parade
Residence Place: Southend-On-Sea, Essex, England
Occupation: Errand Boy
Line Number: 32
Schedule Number: 104
Sub Schedule Number: 8
Enumeration District: Daex
Borough: Southend-On-Sea
Registration district: 195-3/Ed No17
Inferred Father:
Alexander Butler
Inferred Mother:
Louisa E Butler
Household Members Age
Joseph W Patterson 61
Kate Patterson 59
This record is officially closed.
John A Ditton 27
Mary W Ditton 27
Alexander Butler 43
Louisa E Butler 50
Kenneth N Butler 14

Searching for Arthur David Gurney on trees on Ancestry brings up 11 trees for Kenneth Nathaniel Butler, most of them with notes explaining about his birth/adoption.
He was born at 39 Balfour Road, Ilford, on 2/1/1925.

Another daughter for Winifred and Richard - but the birth record does not show up on FreeBMD:

England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2007
Name Margaret D Markham
Registration Date Oct 1940
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Witney
Inferred County Oxfordshire
Mother's Maiden Name Gurney
Volume Number 3a
Page number 3399


She's with her parents at 17 Pitlake Bridge, Croydon in 1963 ER.
Also in 1965, with surname Stang..

Death:
STANGI, MARGARET DAWN 1940
GRO Reference: DOR Q3/2018 in CARMARTHENSHIRE (822-1A) Entry Number 517910170

freebmd

Births Dec 1940 (>99%)
Markham Margert D Ey Witney 3a 3399

Correction submitted

Hi Arthur Bertie Gurney was my late Grandfather. It was correct that Winifred S M Gurney was her brother.

Thank you for some interesting information about Margaret D Markham.

Winifred S M Gurney gave a birth son Arthur David Gurney on 2nd January 1925 in Ilford, Essex, England.

Since he was adopted by Butler family, that's why they have changed his name Kenneth Nathalian Butler. When he was alive he was looking for his biologly father but it was unsuccessfully and also he was believed that Winifred had more children in later life.



Hope looking forward to get some more informations.

Thank you for your big helpings!

Reply to AgllyGran

Where did you find these:

She's with her parents at 17 Pitlake Bridge, Croydon in 1963 ER.
Also in 1965, with surname Stang..

Death:
STANGI, MARGARET DAWN 1940
GRO Reference: DOR Q3/2018 in CARMARTHENSHIRE (822-1A) Entry Number 517910170

Her whereabouts in 1963 and 1965 are from the Electoral Rolls on Ancestry.

Her death is on the GRO site:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp

You have to register, but it's free to search for births (1837-1934 and 1984-2020) and deaths (1837-1957 and 1984-2021) in England and Wales.
You have to know the person's surname, more or less.

Very useful, because it gives you the mother's maiden surname for births, and also full middle names in both births and deaths .

So it was Kenneth Nathaniel looking for his father so the Arthur Bertie gurney wasn’t born 1925 ?