Genealogy Chat

Potty, you are a genius. Hephzibar sure moved around quickly. To be in Disley in 1901. Hull in 1904/5 and Morton Derbyshire in 1911. My dad would have been 7 years of age then. Quite a handful to lug around by a single girl, even by my grandmother who was a toughie I know. But when did she come back to Hull? I know she lived at 109 St Georges Road and often visited her there, but how long was she there?

Actually, Walter, she seems to have been in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire in 1911! Morton, Derbyshire, is her place of birth.

She certainly did move around!

Sorry again, Walter. I'm really bumbling today. I read that she was an inmate in 1911. Of course that's not what it said!

Hi Mad Bull. This is the third time I have posted this and it dissapeared every time. Weird! My father told me in a letter, now sadly lost, that he was given to Cissie Spencer at birth. Now who would give away a newborn baby like that. Or was it Cissie that had the baby? I wish I knew. On my fathers Birth Certificate it states that the birth was attended, I assume they mean midwifed, by Cissie Spencer and giving the same address. Was she a servant there? Could a Toolmaker afford to have servants, or was she a friend or colleague, staying there?

TIPS. Would there have been a register listing people employed in the Toolmaking trade? Is it possible we could find William Mead on such a register? Where would I have to look?

Walter,

As you say something very strange indeed.

William Mead: As you say a toolmaker was a responsible trade/profession, probably learnt as an apprentice. Although it is difficult to put a probable age for William in 1904 I would be inclined to think that if he existed then he may have been a bit younger than you imagine. I have checked the 1881 census (Which can be searched by occupation) to see whether any Mead was shown as a toolmaker but none show up. Similarly none show up in the 1911 census either.

Servants: Generally speaking it did not seem necessary to have a grand or well paid job in order to have servants at the beginning of the 20th century. Job opportunities for young ladies were fairly scarce so many went into service not out of choice but out of necessity. Because there was a glut of labour the wages paid were extremely low (Bed and board only in some cases) so it was possible for families of quite moderate means to have servants.

Hephzibah (Cissie) Spencer: As you say she certainly seemed to get around quite a bit. What and where does it actually say about her on the birth certificate? I have just looked at the various birth certificate copies that I have and none show details of who was in attendance at the birth or who delivered the baby.

Giving away a child: Certainly not unknown but usually due to dire circumstances such as poverty, too many mouths to feed, death of mother ect. Perhaps the more pertinent question to ask is why would a single female aged 23/4 accept the responsibility of someone else's child? Perhaps the child was hers and the other named individuals, a cover. Who was the informant named in column 7 of the certificate?

It is true that unfortunately some single women who had babies did end up in asylums. This was usually as a result of them refusing to give up their baby when given the opportunity to do so.

I thought it curious, too, that the birth certificate stated who delivered the baby. I have many birth certificates but none have that information.

I agree with Jonesey, too, that you didn't have to be wealthy to have a servant in those days.

This one's a real conundrum!

Just checked column 7 on the birth certificate. Informant is listed as C.Spencer. Resident at 3 Ruskin Street. Hull. So you see there were no outsiders present, only the three of them. You say that birth certificates do not usually show who attended the birth? I wonder then why it did in this case? There is nothing straight forward about this business. I have to admit that like my father before me, I am completely baffled. Now isn't that sad?
But you have hit the nail on the head when you say, why would a single woman of 22/23 take on the responsibility of someone elses child? In these days, perhaps quite a few, but in 1904 I think hardly a one. I did say though that my grandmother Cissie was a tough nut. If only...........

I was just looking through the birth certificates that I have and, surprisingly, it was the mother herself who registered the birth on most of them. In a few cases the father registered the birth.

Walter,

The more that I think about it the more that I think that Hephzibar (Cissie) was probably the child's mother. Why else would someone register the child's birth. Today I believe that either parent is eligible to register the birth if the parents are married but the mother only if she is unmarried. The rules of eligibility in 1904/5 may have been different, I do not know but someone else may know that detail.

Maybe the Mead's existed but the absence of any documentary proof in the form of a marriage certificate or census records is making it harder to believe that they did. Cissie would not be the first unmarried mother to invent a story. Usually the story involved an imaginary husband but perhaps she was more inventive than most.

My efforts to try to find your father in 1911 have so far drawn a blank unfortunately.

I have 2 birth certs of brothers that were illegitimate (5 yrs apart)and the mother did not register either of them..They were registered by 2 different people and each did it by...Declaration...
I believe she was too ill to reg the second as she died 3 months after his birth..Upon which he was reg by someone by ..Declaration...
The first child was reg by her employer..by Declaration...

Jonesy I think that you are on the same wavelength as myself. I have always held out that Cissie Spencer was my Grandmother. I have told how I believe she was a lot tougher than most and a whole lot more stubborn too.
I think, like you, that the Mother or Father of the child would normally have been the ones to register the child and been proud to do so. I have said that I believed it was Cissie who gave birth to my Father that day and not a Mead. I think you have it in one, that she had the child and three months later went and registered it, making up the Meads, who may or may not have existed. If this is right, then my estimation of Hephzibar goes up 100%. Do you think that maybe I am near a solution?
No such Meads have ever come to light. Why? Because they existed only in my Grandmothers imagination. I wish my Dad was here so that I could share this with him. Walt
Cissie was a very strong and inventive woman alright from the stories my Father has told me of her. I think she told my Father that Florence Cooper gave him to her, to cover up for there being no Dad for him at that time. I have held a belief for some time that she must have met Walter DeLacy, perhaps been on his ship the Angelo and that he might well have been the childs Father, though unable at that time to marry her. Being away at sea for possibly two or three years would give credence to that theory. Yes? Pewrhaps she later got to marry Walter, as she did, but somehow could not tell Dad who Walter really was.
A long shot, but it could be. A pity that my Dad didn't have computers in those days as he may well have found out himself.

Just putting this in the pot..

There IS a William Mead..Tool Turner on 1911.....One of the Meads is born in Buckinghamshire,,,which is where Cissie is on 1911

MEAD, William E Head Married M 30 1881 Tool Turner Birmingham
MEAD, Flora C Wife Married 2 years
F 31 1880 Birmingham
MEAD, Alfred E Son M 1 1910 Redditch Worcs
MEAD, Charles Son M 0 1911 Redditch Worcs
MEAD, Sarah Mother Widow F 70 1841 Stoklenchurch Oxfordshire
MEAD, Edward Brother Single M 35 1876 Tool Maker High Wycombe Bucks
MEAD, Annie Sister Single F 32 1879 Tailoress Warwick Warwickshire

Registration District:
Bromsgrove Sub District:
Tardebigg Enumeration District:
15 Parish:
Redditch

Address:
82 Other Road Redditch County:
Worcestershire

1911 just to show that William is not with grandparents

SPENCER, Isaiah Head Married M 68 1843 Watch Maker Polebrook Norths VIEW
SPENCER, Eunice Wife Married
47 years F 69 1842 Fleckney Leicestershire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
20300 Reference:
RG14PN20300 RG78PN1217 RD428 SD3 ED1 SN151

Registration District:
Mansfield Sub District:
Blackwell Enumeration District:
1 Parish:
Tibshelf

Address:
2 Club Houses Tibshelf Near Alfreton

This marriage matches the1911 family posted

Marriages Sep 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENT Flora Constance Aston 6d 450
HEAD William Ernest Aston 6d 450
LAIT Frederick Charles Aston 6d 450
MEAD William Ernest Aston 6d 450

Just for interests sake:

http://www.pastscape.org.uk/hob.aspx?hob_id=1090841

HMYOI Aylesbury Prison opened in the spring of 1847 providing accommodation for 285 inmates. Reading county gaol was used as a model for Aylesbury, which wasn't completed until November 1847. In the 1890s it became a women's prison and in 1902 two additional wings were constructed and a State Inebriate Reformatory for women was established. Some time between 1905 and 1914 the prison housed those arrested for acts of militancy undertaken in the campaign for women's suffrage. From 1912-1933 part of the former reformatory was used for women undergoing preventative detention and in the 1930s it became a girl's borstal. It housed solely adult male prisoners from 1959 and in 1961 it became a young male offenders prison for those aged between 17 and 21. It was designated a long term young offender institution in 1989.

Julie

Glad FBG showed up with her examples, because I was going to go haul her over here to tell us about them -- I remember them well. ;)

The Flora Constance Gent from the 1908 marriage and 1911 household, in 1901, for info:

James W Gent 53 - printer and compositor
Emma Gent 52
Charlotte G Gent 24
Flora C Gent 21 - dressmaker
Charles H Gent 13
Frederick J Gent 11
Israel W Gent 81 - retired shoemaker

in Birmingham, 196 Green Lanes.


It seems particularly odd that a third party would register a birth in the names of a couple who weren't even married until 4 years later!


But keep in mind that the names given on the birth cert were William Mead and *Florence Cooper*, not *Flora Gent*, so I'm thinking this couple really is a total red herring.

-- but -- it could be the right William Mead in 1911, in view of the occupation, and just that Flora his wife isn't Florence Cooper the alleged mother of WHM.


That William in 1901 for info, in Birmingham:

Alfred Mead 58 - born Buckinghamshire
Sarah Mead 60 - born Oxford
Edward Mead 26
William Mead 20 - press tool worker
Annie Mead 23
Annie Granton 50

Walter
Have you looked for a baptism record for your father?

Not too many people would tell lies to a vicar regarding parentage. I have even seen vicars note reputed father's name on entries for illegitimate children's baptism records.


Gwyn

Back again, the rig crashed on me last night stopping me from coming in with any more. But......Yes Gwyn in Kent, you have a good sugestion there. I shall have a scout around today and saee if |I can locate a Baptism Certificate. Maybe as you say, it will shed more light on this subject. Many thanks. Walt.

Okay, I think I am at the end of my search limits. Just got a reply back from Genes Reunited. Seems they do not hold any records of Baptisms. Now that is a shame. So I will not be able to find that out after all. But I want to thank everyone and I mean everyone who has contributed to my quest for TIPS and for the information which ensued.
I think I now know for sure, in my own mind, that Cissie was indeed my real grandmother. Whatever the reasons for the Red Herrings, I think she acted out of a desire to protect my father and did so remarkably well.
I still have to do a chronological chart for Cissie and for Walter DeLacy. I will get on with that today maybe. But I am convinced in my own mind that Walter DeLacy was my paternal grandfather. Cissie was a beautiful and uncharcteristically adventurous girl for the age and I can see her boarding that ship with Walter, way back and begining a bond that endured until she could marry him years later. Am I a romantic? Guess I must be. You have all been so wonderful and supportive to me in this. Who could ask for anything more than that. I shall miss you all. Thank you once again for everything you have done for me. Regards. Walter

nudge out of interest because my grandmother was registered as if to a married couple. Her mother registered the birth.

However no sign of them on the census. No marriage or deaths and gran is a nurse child. on the census
Recently I was told by a cousin who knew her that she was brought up by " aunts", She is with a mother and daughter in 1891 and 1901.

I have not found any way they are related and many have helped in searching without results so I think the "aunts " were non related kind