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England/Wales?

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Elaine

Elaine Report 15 May 2013 10:08

Can anyone please tell me....in 1843,was part of Shropshire still in Wales?
The reason I ask,is that I was unable to find a relative who was down on census as being born in Wrexham,Denbighshire.
Another lady researching same family(her gt g/father was brother of my gt gr/mother )sent away for a birth cert for his father,and had money returned,because no-one of that name was born there in the 5yrs +-.
I googled last night and found article which said something about some Wales thing about 1920( will copy and post when I on laptop,don't know how to do it on iPad),when app the border between England and Wales changed.

I DID find birth in Newport.,Shropshire,and wondered was Newport v far away from Wrexham? And could Wrexham have maybe once been in Shropshire,or Newport,in Wales?

KenSE

KenSE Report 15 May 2013 10:28

There are several Newports in the UK including one in Shropshire.

Reggie

Reggie Report 15 May 2013 10:41

Look at a road map and consider the feasibility of the suggestion in terms of distance

BUT.............

Don't forget that that until 1875, there were no penalties for not registering births.

Many births were simply NOT registered.

Your best bet is to look for a baptism

Andysmum

Andysmum Report 15 May 2013 10:43

As far as I am aware, the only border changes involved the County of Monmouthshire, which was sometimes in England and sometimes Wales.

Births were registered in the larger towns and I think the English/Welsh border was ignored eg Wrexham is just over the Welsh border in Denbighshire, but births in villages in Shropshire would still have been registered there.

Reggie

Reggie Report 15 May 2013 10:54

From your post...............

"because no-one of that name was born there in the 5yrs +-."

That should read 'registered'.....not 'born'. Subtle, but vital, difference

Elaine

Elaine Report 15 May 2013 11:01

Yes,Ken...I did find a birth in Newport .Shrops,but it had on census that he was b Llangollen.,Wrexham.,Denbighshire....so I'm trying to find a connection between the 2 towns!
He DEFINITELY wasn't born in Llangollen,as I put above,the lady had her money returned because he wasn't born there.

DazedConfused

DazedConfused Report 15 May 2013 11:42

'Birth were registered in the larger towns' well my g/grandfather was born in 1874 in Liverpool and his birth was never registered. Odd 'cos his 4 older siblings were, but as his parents had 'problems' I have made allowances for them, the only way I found out about him was through the Catholic Baptism records.

So being in a large town did not really make that much difference.

Elaine

Elaine Report 15 May 2013 11:49

Sorry Reggie,she sent for copy of a birth cert,so,of course,I should have put baptism.

PP...my grandad was one of about 10 children....a couple were bapt RC,one bapt,but not RC....can't find baptisms for ANY of the others,inc mi grandad!
Where will I find the Catholic Baptism records,in case any are on there?

Stuart

Stuart Report 15 May 2013 12:59

Does the person maintain on all census that he was born in Wrexham or does the place change?

Also sometimes people only remember where they lived as a younger person, which may not have been where they were born.

Newport Shropshire is 30+ miles from Wrexham

Porkie_Pie

Porkie_Pie Report 15 May 2013 13:47

Where did she apply for the birth cert, was it through the GRO or Wrexham


The reason I ask is that the records for registration district Wrexham are now split between Wrexham and Cheshire West & Chester so the record could be held at the Cheshire West & Chester office

WREXHAM REGISTRATION DISTRICT

Registration County : Denbighshire.
Created : 1.7.1837.
Abolished : 1.4.1974 (to become part of Wrexham Maelor registration district).
Sub-districts : Holt, Hope, Llangollen, Malpas, Ruabon, Wrexham., Wrexham & Bromfield
GRO volumes : XXVII (1837–51), 11b (1852–1946), 8A (1946–74).
Registers now held by : Wrexham and Cheshire West & Chester


And was the name spelling correct? on the application

Roy

Thelma

Thelma Report 15 May 2013 13:58

Why not order the cert from Newport the same way as the Wrexham one.

Elaine

Elaine Report 15 May 2013 14:22

Stuart...in censuses 1871.,'81.,'91 and 1911,he was down as one of the following:-Llangollen.Denbighshire or Denbighshire.Wales or Llangollen.Wrexham or simply Denbighshire.
Not found him in 1901 yet! lol

PP...only got in touch with this lady last week...i sent the same message to loads of people,and she had the same names and her family lived at the same house in the same street,and had the same names as mine!
Will message her to see where she wrote to for the birth cert(in fact i'll look at our message history and see does she mention it there)

I have a thread running on GR,titled "Mary Ann Kelly,where were you in 1901?
That is why I havent put names on here,so as not to confuse people....this was more of a geographical question.(I have an awful habit of getting in bother,with flitting from one to another!)hahaha

** Part of Shropshire was included in the Welsh diocese of St Asaph until the disestablishment of the Church in Wales (1920), comprising the deanery of Oswestry in the archdeaconry of Montgomery, and two parishes in the deanery of Llangollen and the archdeaconry of Wrexham.[7] Certain parishes in Montgomeryshire chose to remain in the diocese of Hereford.[citation needed]


I found this when i googled "how far is it from Wrexham.Denbighshire to Newport.Shropshire",but i dont understand what it means! lol

Andysmum

Andysmum Report 15 May 2013 14:46

PP - I think you have misunderstood what I said.

I meant that Registrars were situated in the larger towns, not that only people in large towns registered births!

Elaine

Elaine Report 15 May 2013 15:09

lol..thats what i thought you meant Andysmum.

I was born Atherton,but births etc were reg 3 1/2 mls away in Leigh...now,I think they're registered in Wigan(6 mls away)

Rambling Rose

Rambling Rose Report 15 May 2013 17:01

I live not far from Newport Shropshire, it is a long way from Wrexham and Llangollen, so unless the mother had family there that she went to stay with for the birth it is very unlikely.

Elaine

Elaine Report 15 May 2013 17:09

Right,that puts the kibbosh on that then!

thnx RR.

will have to try Roys suggestion that records are maybe held elsewhere.

Gremlins seem to have got into my GR this aft...everythings going in slow motion,including scrolling to earlier posts to check things!

:-(

Reggie

Reggie Report 15 May 2013 22:10

Elaine

Did you not take on board the info about registration before 1875??????

Elaine

Elaine Report 15 May 2013 23:18

about it not being illegal not to register a child? Yes I did,but it costs nothing to look,and i DID find a birth in Wrexham,tonight, and have a ref no. Registers at Wrexham County Borough(Wrexham)
Have messaged the other lady looking for same family,to see whether that was the ref.she had.
Had to go back to births cos i simply couldnt find a baptism!
I try and use EVERY bit of info i get.
Elaine

mgnv

mgnv Report 16 May 2013 17:37

Apart from indecision abt Monmouth, I don't think the English/Welsh border was changed. The town of Wrexham was in Flintshire.

Some things don't exactly follow the national boundary, e.g., Swansea FC play in the English premier league.

Rego districts are another example. Wrexham RD had parts of Flint and Denbeigh, and in the very early days, parts of Cheshire.

Llangollen was in Denbeighshire. Until 1935, it was in Corwen RD. Corwen was abolished in 1935, and also the parish boundaries of Llangollen were altered - most of Llangollen went to Wrexham RD, although a fragment affected by the new parish boundaries went with its new parish (Llandegla) into Ruthin RD.

mgnv

mgnv Report 16 May 2013 17:50

Although Wrexham marrs are covered by both the Wrexham local index (their site also has cemetery info) and
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.php
They both have the same BMD info and, unfortunately, do not index their marrs by entry #, but just by the local page #. E.g.,

North Wales Marriage indexes for the years: 1868
Surname Forename Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
KELLY Thomas Wrexham, Civil Marriage Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/013/15
HOWARD Mary Ellen WM/013/15
JOHNSON Maria WM/013/15
REYNOLDS William WM/013/15

Here's the corresponding lookup at FreeBMD, and the following page (each is reordered here):

Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
WILLIAMS William Wrexham 11b 544
EDWARDS Ann Wrexham 11b 544
------------------
Kelly Thomas Wrexham 11b 544
Johnson Maria Wrexham 11b 544

Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
Reynolds William Wrexham 11b 545
HOWARD Mary Ellen Wrexham 11b 545
-------------------
Rogers Price Wrexham 11b 545
Reynolds Sarah Jane Wrexham 11b 545

Note the local and GRO pages are misaligned - this happens abt 50% of time - so the pairs of names on the pages differ, so taking the two indexes together, we can say who wed whom - I've indicated the pairings by my reordering here.