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Why might I not be able to find a death?

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Sheryl

Sheryl Report 22 Aug 2013 21:47

:-S

My great grandmother Elizabeth Cleworth nee Tootill does not seem to have a death record in either surname, nor am I able to find a divorce record or second marriage to provide an alternative surname. I have tried spelling variants also. I have searched GR and also Lancashire BMD but only up until 1975.

Why might this be?!

Elizabeth Tootill born Q3 1898 in Bolton, Lancashire, married Reuben Cleworth Q2 1916 in Bolton, Lancashire. Reuben died Q2 1947 in Horwich, Bolton. They had at least 3 children.

Cannot find a census record for Elizabeth Tootill in variant spellings either.

I'm lost.

patchem

patchem Report 22 Aug 2013 21:57

Welcome to the boards, Sheryl.

Have you asked your parents or grandparents when they think she died, or any further information about her?

Have you got Reuben's death certificate to know whether she was still alive then?

Thanks

Added:
Middle initial for ref;
Elizabeth A Tootill
Spouse Surname: Cleworth
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1916
Registration District: Bolton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8c
Page Number: 581

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 22 Aug 2013 22:09

Could she have remarried?


Name: Elizabeth A Cleworth
Spouse Surname: Mccarthy
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1955
Registration District: Bolton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 10b
Page Number: 1243
Find Spouse: Edward McCarthy


Name: Elizabeth A McCarthy
Birth Date: abt 1898
Date of Registration: Mar 1961
Age at Death: 63
Registration District: Wolverhampton
Inferred County: Staffordshire
Volume: 9b
Page: 1324

patchem

patchem Report 22 Aug 2013 22:13

I was just about to add that one, Shirley.
There is no record for her original surname for second marriage, but that is often missing.
Presumably nothing stopping her moving to Wolverhampton.
Just wondering, still, what the family knows of her.

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 22 Aug 2013 22:19

True patcham.
We are both Londoners but moved to Kent in the 1960,s so people dont stay in the same areas these days

patchem

patchem Report 22 Aug 2013 22:21

Sheryl,
Have you got her Father's name from the wedding certificate?

Added;
Is this her birth, as no middle initial?
Elizabeth Tootill
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1898
Registration District: Bolton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 358

patchem

patchem Report 22 Aug 2013 22:37

Is this Reuben - has he been married before?

Baptism: 14 Jun 1875 Chowbent Chapel, Atherton, Lancashire, England
Reuben Cleworth - [Child] of Israel Cleworth & Hannah
Born: 28 May 1875
Abode: Atherton
Notes: Registered 20 Jun 1875
Register: Baptisms 1837-1890, Page 174
Source: The Register of Births & Christenings belonging to the Protestant Dissenting Chapel Chowbent

Burial: 18 May 1947 Christ Church, Walmsley, Lancashire, England
Reuben Cleworth -
Age: 71 yrs
Abode: 5 Old Globe Egerton
Grave: No. 166 Ex. 'A'
Buried by: C. R. Shawcross Asst. Curate
Register: Burials 1943 - 1955, Page 35, Entry 279
Source: Register at Manchester Library

Reggie

Reggie Report 22 Aug 2013 22:49

1911 census

Person: TOOTELL, Elizabeth Address: 26 Barton Road Farnworth

TOOTELL, Rachel Head Widow F 53 1858 Bolton Lancs VIEW
TOOTELL, Sarah Alice Daughter Single F 29 1882 Toffee Manufacturer Bolton Lancs VIEW
TOOTELL, James Son Single M 24 1887 Coal Miner Hewer Farnworth Lancs VIEW
TOOTELL, Lily Daughter Single F 21 1890 Cotton Mule Reeler Farnworth Lancs VIEW
TOOTELL, John Son Single M 18 1893 Maker Up Manf Goods Farnworth Lancs VIEW
TOOTELL, Betsy Daughter Single F 16 1895 Cotton Mule Reeler Farnworth Lancs VIEW
TOOTELL, Elizabeth Daughter F 12 1899 Toffee Manf Part Time Fanrworth Lancs

Reggie

Reggie Report 22 Aug 2013 22:50

1901 census


Person: TOOTEL, Elizabeth Address: 26, Barton Road, Farnworth

TOOTEL, John Head Married M 40 1861 Coal Miner Hewer
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Rachael Wife Married F 43 1858
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Sarah A Daughter Single F 18 1883 Confectioners Assistant
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Thomas Son Single M 15 1886 Coal Miners Wagoner
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, James Son Single M 14 1887 Coal Miners Wagoner
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Lily Daughter Single F 11 1890
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, John Son Single M 8 1893
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Betsy Daughter Single F 6 1895
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTEL, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 2 1899
Farnworth, Lancashire

Reggie

Reggie Report 22 Aug 2013 22:52

1891 census


Person: TOOTILL, Rachel Address: 51, Lee Street, Farnworth

TOOTILL, John Head Married M 29 1862 Collier
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, Rachel Wife Married F 30 1861
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, Sarah A Daughter Single F 8 1883 Scholar
Bolton, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, Thomas Son Single M 5 1886 Scholar
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, James Son Single M 4 1887
Farnworth, Lancashire VIEW
TOOTILL, Lilly Daughter Single F 2 1889
Farnworth, Lancashire

Reggie

Reggie Report 22 Aug 2013 22:54

Marriage........1881

WALSH Rachel TOOTELL John Bolton, St Bartholomew Bolton 60/1/10

Reggie

Reggie Report 22 Aug 2013 22:56

Baptism: 2 Jul 1882 St Mark, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Sarah Alice Tootell - Daughter of John Tootell & Rachel
Abode: Brick St
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: J. G. Doman, Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1866 - 1882, Page 194, Entry 1545
Source: LDS Film 1966169

Baptism: 6 Jun 1886 Holy Trinity, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Thomas Tootill - Son of John Tootill & Rachel
Abode: 31 Lees St. Moses Gate
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: Charles Lowe Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1884 - 1890, Page 125, Entry 993
Source: LDS Film 1966124

Baptism: 1 Nov 1889 Egerton Street Wesleyan Methodist, Moses Gate, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Lily Tootell - [Child] of John Tootell & Rachel
Born: 18 Jun 1889
Abode: 51 Lee St Moses Gate
Source: Church Registers transcribed by Bolton Genealogy Gro

Reggie

Reggie Report 22 Aug 2013 22:59

Baptism: 25 Apr 1894 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
John Tootell - [Child] of John Tootell & Rachel
Born: 8 Aug 1892
Abode: 51 Lee St.
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: T. Austin
Register: Baptisms 1887 - 1911, Page 62, Entry 490
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library

Baptism: 25 Apr 1894 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
James Tootell - [Child] of John Tootell & Rachel
Born: 28 Dec 1886
Abode: 51 Lee St.
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: T. Austin
Register: Baptisms 1887 - 1911, Page 62, Entry 489
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library

Baptism: 25 Apr 1894 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Lilly Tootell - [Child] of John Tootell & Rachel
Born: 18 Jun 1889
Abode: 51 Lee St.
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: T. Austin
Register: Baptisms 1887 - 1911, Page 61, Entry 488
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library

Baptism: 19 Feb 1905 St James, New Bury, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Betsy Tootill - [Child] of John Tootill & Rachel
Born: 10 Mar 1895
Abode: 26 Barton Road
Occupation: Coalminer
Baptised by: George Holden
Register: Baptisms 1904 - 1911, Page 11, Entry 98
Source: Microfilm at Manchester Central Library

Baptism: 19 Feb 1905 St James, New Bury, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Tootill - [Child] of John Tootill & Rachel
Born: 7 Jun 1898
Abode: 26 Barton Road
Occupation: Coalminer
Baptised by: George Holden
Register: Baptisms 1904 - 1911, Page 11, Entry 99
Source: Microfilm at Manchester Central Library

patchem

patchem Report 22 Aug 2013 23:11

I think we need to know which Elizabeth Tootill/Tootell we are actually looking for.

From free bmd:
Births Mar 1896
TOOTELL Elizabeth Blackburn 8e 450
TOOTELL Elizabeth Ann Bolton 8c 457
Births Sep 1898
TOOTILL Elizabeth Bolton 8c 358
Births Jun 1899
TOOTELL Elizabeth Annie Chorley 8e 526
Births Sep 1900
Tootell Elizabeth Alice Bolton 8c 535

Reggie

Reggie Report 22 Aug 2013 23:18

As per OP's post............

Elizabeth Tootill born Q3 1898 in Bolton,

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 23 Aug 2013 02:31

When posters start quoting registration quarters it invariably means they don't have the relevant certificates and that means we can't trust the birth information listed.

Rose





mgnv

mgnv Report 23 Aug 2013 04:43

I agree with Patchem - I can't see how Sheryl can distinguish between the 3 Bolton Elizabeth Tootill's patchem found without seeing Eliz on a census.

I can see it with a census - if my adult kids asked me abt their g grandparents, even before I started on my family tree, I knew the name of at least one sib of each of my grandparents, and even the same for my wife's maternal grandparents - I'd met the majority of the ones I could name - so these would be findable on a census. I also knew if each of my (and my wife's) grandparents died as a widow/widower or married. I can even figure from family stories that my own 4 g grans died as widows.

I think you definitely need to see her m.cert for Reuben - this would name her dad, and the witnesses are often sibs or sibs-in-law of the couple.

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1916
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
TOOTILL Elizabeth A CLEWORTH Reuben Bradshaw, St Maxentius Bolton 22/2/219

You could buy the cert from the GRO, or maybe see an image - if it's handy, give Bolton main library a call - they could tell you if they've got images of this parish register, or else, where it's stored.

Sheryl, I don't know what you have seen, but since all your datings are GRO quarterly index dates, I'm guessing you've not seen the actual certs. On the other hand, I don't know what you know from your family. I would feel uncomfortable abt following Eliz back without further info.

Since the are at least 89 y old, I'll post them as it gives a limit at old end for any death:

Births Dec 1917 (>99%)
CLEWORTH Reuben Tootill Bolton 8c 616

Births Dec 1918 (>99%)
Cleworth Nelly Tootill Bolton 8c 627

Births Dec 1919 (>99%)
Cleworth Annie Tootill Bolton 8c 867

Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
CLEWORTH Ethel Tootill Bolton 8c 849

Births Dec 1921 (>99%)
Cleworth Emily Tootill Bolton 8c 842

Births Mar 1924 (>99%)
Cleworth Frank Tootill Bolton 8c 754

These were the only Cleworth-Toot* births post-1915 (checked on Ancestry). Also there were no Bolton Toot*-Toot* births 1911q3 thru 1916.

DazedConfused

DazedConfused Report 23 Aug 2013 08:41

And then you have the mis-transcriptions where it could have been

Totthill or Tothill

Just to add to the mix....

Sheryl

Sheryl Report 23 Aug 2013 10:08

Wow, so much information. Thanks everyone.

Sadly, my living relatives are unable to help me.

I haven't seen/ordered any certs yet as I was unsure which would be best to go for to get the information I need. I could be ordering certs for the wrong Elizabeth and being misled, spending a fortune too!

I have my grandparents marriage certificate - Annie Cleworth was my Gran, her father is named as Reuben Cleworth and her sister Ethel was a witness.

I shall have a look through all the information everyone has posted and have a look at getting/seeing a copy of some of the certs you have all suggested.

Thank you.

Reggie

Reggie Report 23 Aug 2013 10:23

The Reuben Cleworth marriage cert would be the most useful document to get, as it is the only 'certainty'

BTW........that marriage would appear to have produced 6 children