General Chat

I will make the effort to read that one if I can.

That does look like an interesting book!

Thanks Ann. I will try to remember that.If it is an autobiography it will be worth reading.

Sharron the Greaders book club read a good book called Mennonite in a little black dress by Rhoda Janzen. This was a story based on the real life of the author and gave good insight into the lives of Mennonites.

This must have been how villages traditionally survived. There was the family for support but beyond the family there was the village which was mosly extended family anyway.

That was how this village was when I was born.I had over sixty people in the village to whom I was related.Now there are three but there is still a core of us villagers.It is hard to define us but,as we get older we pull together more. If you were to kick my ankle, somebody down the village would limp a bit.

This,I thik,is why shunning is the greatest punishments the Anabaptists use, because community is support. One man can't raise his own barn,nor can he afford to pay a contractor.He is lost without his community.

I was very impressed by a paper deliverd by Lady Catherwood (daughter of the outstanding preacher Rev Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones) in Daventry about 15 years ago.

It was about Puritan women in 17th century. Now in our society today, women like them would be considered to be spineless, under the thumb of husbands, dutiful, unambitious.

Yet they were the powerhouse in the family. They were the ones who influenced the children. They used skill and charm to "manage" their husbands. And (nothing to do with religion) the mothers in the east end of London till after WW2 were similar. It was when their daughters moved out to Stevenage, Haverhill, Basildon and Welwyn that the matriarchal family broke down and (according to a sociology book I once read) caused a lot of tension and depression within both the new family settling in Stevenage and the old mum left in Poplar or Bow.

However much we may want to look down on the lives of these Hutterite and Amish women (and many will), they have something that has been tested over centuries and works well for them. And I wonder if those communities that continue to resist fine living, fine clothes, high borrowing, electricity, long commutes to work, will survive longer than we think. :-)

I'm with you.

They have something which we, as a society, lost a long time ago and we are the worse for it.


We may have all the modern 'necessities' and ideals of this world, but they have something deeper and more fulfilling.

Nope, I'm just nosy!

I am kind of interested to know what makes them tick. It is traditional and practical. The seem to be peace loving, apart from Mr Levi who may or may not be real.

They are kind of in tune with something we have lost.

One aspect is the women. There is no way I could condone the way they live in the larger world but in the way that they live the women carry knowledge which is quite as important as the skills the men learn.

There needs to be that divide to maintain their lifestyle and there is equality and practicality in it.

There is a perspective on life that is quite hard for a modern person to grasp but it must have been the perspective that sustained society for a very long time.

Had a quick look at that Sharron - yep, a whole new slant indeed.


You say that you are interested in their lifestyle. Is that because they seem to be rather serene and not hassled by the things which tend to weigh us down, or because you admire their commitment and structured lives?

I am not particularly interested in their religious practices, more on their lifestyle but I have been looking at a few bits on the net.

Have a look at Lebanon Levi. Now he puts a whole new slant on things.

Have found quite an interesting paper written in 2006 by a Methodist

http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/node/354

The paper is 10 pages and a bit dry. One thing I was quite wrong about was that Wesley didn't think much of the Anabaptists. Quite the opposite.

Wesley was firmly in the Anabaptist camp as far as the relationship between church and state was concerned. The Reformers (led by Luther and Calvin) believed the conversion of Constantine was the highpoint of church history. The Anabaptists saw it as the fall of the church - a fatal compromise of the gospel with worldly wealth and power.

John Wesley (and his brothers Charles and Samuel) were ordained in C of E and remained loyal to that church all their lives. But they were concerned with the church's collusion with the world and felt it was being dragged away from its pursuit of holiness.

I am sure Wesley would have taken issue with Anabaptists over this baptising of adults. I myself often get into heated discussion (moi??) with Baptists over this issue. I believe the one true baptism is the one received by believers at Pentecost. We call it being "born again". In my mind that is the baptism that really matters, and any water baptism as a believer is simply a sign and seal of that true baptism. A "nice to have" but not essential. And sprinkling is probably quite sufficient.

And, if someone is not subsequently immersed or sprinkled in water, they are still Christians in the fullest sense imo. And the fact that an unimmersed Christian cannot take communion/eucharist with an immersed Anabaptist seems wrong to me.

I did not see either of the programmes about the Hutterites and really know hardly anything about them but I always feel that,depite the austere aspect,Amish life is quite settled and serene.

The lack of opportunity for status symbols must be a great advantage to their happiness.

Sharron. Totally agree about Jesus Army. I was pretty clear they were a cult back in 1995 when that article was written. And yes, they do not belong on an Anabaptist thread at all. So sorry for diversion :-)

I am just amazed that they (Anabaptists) have kept to their teachings and principles for so many centuries. Even now when there are so many temptations to draw them away from a simple Christian life.

I think the Jesus Army are much more of a cult ............... like the Hare Krishnas, etc


and one that could be a dangerous cult.

These often depend on the charisma of one person who lays down the rules, and his own interpretation of the Bible.


Unfortunately, most of these cults last only a very short time, and often degenerate into almost a hero worship, brain washing state ................


Think, James Jones and Jonestown, which led to a mass suicide in 1978.

or Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh or Osho who led the Rajneeshpuram commune in Oregon in 1981

Within a year, the leadership of the commune became embroiled in a conflict with local residents, primarily over land use, which was marked by hostility on both sides. The large collection of Rolls-Royce automobiles purchased for his use by his followers also attracted criticism. The Oregon commune collapsed in 1985 when Osho revealed that the commune leadership had committed a number of serious crimes, including a bioterror attack (food contamination) on the citizens of The Dalles. 751 people were poisoned through the deliberate contamination of salad bars at ten local restaurants with salmonella. The aim being to stop them voting in the local elections, so that the commune's candidates would win. Two Rajneeshpuram "high ups" were later sentenced to 29 months in jail.

His ashram is today known as the Osho International Meditation Resort. His teachings "emphasise the importance of meditation, awareness, love, celebration, courage, creativity and humour ........... qualities that he viewed as being suppressed by adherence to static belief systems, religious tradition and socialisation. Osho's teachings have had a notable impact on Western New Age thought, and their popularity has increased markedly since his death."


These cults rarely last more than one or two generations, and can do great harm to adherents.



On the other hand, the Anabaptists are recognised religions, ones that stick strictly to the Old Testament, or the Bible as originally preached in the 16th century.

They do not have the ONE leader ................ they have "ministers" in the same sense as the Protestants, or even the Catholics, who interpret the Bible for their congregations.


The major difference really between the Anabaptists and the other religions is their adherence to "old style" living, and communal or colony life ........... where the community works together for the betterment of all.

Most of them actually do not live communally, they live in a colony ............... each family has its own house, cooks their own meals, etc etc.

I find it quite difficult to draw a comparison between the Jesus Army and Anabaptism. They are so fundamentally different and I am wondering if the do not require entirely seperate threads.

Anabaptists are maintaining a very long tradition and not wanting to interfere with the outside world whereas the Jesus Army appears to be a cult that is exploiting the helpless.like that gypsy family who were recently jailed.

Gwynne. That article about Jesus Army was 1995. It said leader Noel Stanton was 67, yet I remember seeing him as a quite old man being driven round Bugbrooke. We left that area in 2007. If he is still alive, he will be about 85 now.

That worried me about Jesus Army. He was quite a charismatic leader, and there was nobody obvious to take over from him. One of the deacons of my old chapel used to buy supplies form one of their businesses in Towcester and got quite friendly with a couple of the men. Invited them to one of our mid week Bible studies.

They seemed very keen to come, but then made lots of excuses. As the article said, they had no contact with any other church group and still don't, as far as I know.

I've just found this site, which may be an interesting one to explore ...............


http://www2.etown.edu/amishstudies/Index.asp


I was looking for information on rumspringa ....... and found the site. It seems to be clearly written :-D


I did note that according to this, rumspringa seems to be an Amish practice, but not in all communities, and girls MAY also participate.

John re Baptists. There is no Christening, Godparents etc just a dedication service where babies are welcomed into the church. Baptists believe in Adult baptism by full immersion as an adult or often teenager when the person is able to make their own decision to commit to a life following Christ. Again no Godparents.

I had never even heard of the Hutterites until someone posted that there was a program on the BBC about them, so switched the t.v on immediately to watch this. Fascinating! Had no idea what Anabaptists meant, until I looked I googled it. Fascinating!!! Have no comment about any life-style of such people, each to their own, we just should treat everyine with respect. Having said that, I am still annoyed by the Jehova Witness people that cold call. A weeka ago, the doorbell rang VERY early in the morning, I only looked out of an upstairs window, saw a very old man tottering away with his rollator..but, have never been annoyed by any Anabaptisen-ever...so, live and let live, I say.

I don't know if the Hutterites have the rumspringa or even if it applies to girls in reality.

Of course,any one of them can go and live in the outside world but it would mean they didn't have the protection of the community anymore.