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You refer to Elizabeth as your grandfather’s first wife…….NOT as your grandmother, so she is not part of your Ancestry.

The line you need to pursue is that of your grandmother

Possible births for Elizabeth - assuming she was Howard at birth, and assuming her birth was actually registered:

HOWARD, ELIZABETH mmn BRINN
GRO Reference: 1848 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 04 Page 231

HOWARD, ELIZABETH mmn ORMES
GRO Reference: 1849 M Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01 Page 224

HOWARD, ELIZABETH mmn MASSY
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in SAINT PANCRAS Volume 01 Page 345

HOWARD, ELIZABETH mmn BEEK
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK Volume 04 Page 487

HOWARD, ELIZABETH mmn MACHIN
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in ST JAMES CLERKENWELL Volume 03 Page 113

HOWARD, ELIZABETH mmn CANDLER
GRO Reference: 1850 M Quarter in POPLAR UNION Volume 02 Page 350

HOWARD, ELIZABETH mmn MILLER
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in WESTMINSTER Volume 01 Page 447

HOWARD, ELIZABETH mmn ANDREW
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in SAINT LUKE'S MIDDLESEX Volume 02 Page 294

There are others with middle names, but I've assumed she didn't have one, as pre marriage.

Thank you every one I think the 1861census with Thomas and Ann are possible
Is there any way I can find out Ann's maiden name

Samuel's previous long thread about Samuel and his second wife - and apparently there was another thread before that:

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1339253

Samuel Rodgers's second wife (marriage 1905) was Minnie Brindley.

Here's Ancestry's correct version of the 1861 census - after much searching!
The family name is NOT Howard.

Thomas Leonard
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Thomas Leonard
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Leonard
Gender: Male
Where born: Abingdon, Berkshire, England
Civil Parish: Southwark St George the Martyr
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration District: St George Southwark
Sub-registration District: Kent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 17
Piece: 328
Folio: 5
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Leonard 34
Ann Leonard 31
Thomas Leonard 18
Elizabeth Leonard 8
Alise Leonard 5
Catherine Leonard 3
William Leonard 3/12


They're still Leonard in 1871:

Catherine Leonard
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Catherine Leonard
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: 1858
Relation: Daughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Southwark Surrey England
Civil parish: St Mary Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: St John Walworth and St Peter
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: Trinity Newington
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Household schedule number: 255
Piece: 613
Folio: 62
Page number: 43
Household Members Age Relationship
Thomas Leonard 44 Head
Ann Leonard 41 Wife
George Leonard 7 Son
Alfred Leonard 4 Son
Edward Leonard 1 Son
Elizabeth Leonard 18 Daughter
Alice Leonard 15 Daughter
Catherine Leonard 13 Daughter



And at Catherine's marriage:

Catherine Leonard
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936
Name: Catherine Leonard
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1855
Marriage Date: 12 Jul 1875
Marriage Place: St John the Evangelist, Walworth, Southwark, England
Father: Thomas Leonard - hearth rug maker <<<<<<<<
Spouse: William Atkins
Register Type: Parish Register


The name is definitely Leonard on the marriage cert and in 1871.
Not so clear in 1861, though it is Leonard when you know what you're looking for.

So back to square one. Thanks for clearing that up AG.

Does ancestry link the woman on the marriage record to any earlier census?

The 1905 marriage was in Manchester

If I have the right 1911, SAMUEL was born c1866

Do you have the 1905 marriage cert?

The only link Ancestry suggests from Samuel and Elizabeth's marriage is a wrong one - to an unmarried Elizabeth Hayward with a sister Frances in 1891 - born in Deal, Kent.

Samuel does seem to have the 1905 marriage cert.

In the other thread he says,

"Sam married Minnie on the Dec 30th in Manchester on it it said he was born in 1866 in London Genes friends found he was born London 1854."

I found that 1861 census on find my past

Couldn’t pick it up on ancestry

Other older threads about Samuel - though not with any useful new info for us now:


https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1310799

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1260080

Minnie and Sam are my grandparents both were widowed when they married
in 1905' in Manchester he was born in 1854 not 1866 she died in 1935 and he died
in 1924 My dad was the only Rogers. he was also called Sam he died in 1961.

It says he was born in 1866 in 1911 also:

Event Type: Census
Name: Samuel Rogers
Sex: Male
Age: 45
Event Date: 1911
Event Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original): South Manchester, C On M M/C, Lancashire, England
Sub-District: Chorlton Upon Medlock
Sub-District Number: 3
Enumeration District: 5
Registration District: Chorlton
District Number: 464
Birth Year (Estimated): 1866
Birthplace: London City, London
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: COACHMAKER
Nationality: ENGLISH
Number in Family: 6
Industry: NO
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Document Type: 3
Page Number: 1
Source Page Type: 6
Piece/Folio: 629
Registration Number: RG14
Schedule Type: 314


Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Samuel Rogers Head M 45 London City, London
Minnie Rogers Wife F 38 Handley, Cheshire
Arhur Bridley Stepson M 14 Handley, Cheshire
Glaydas Brindley Stepdaughter F 11 Handley, Cheshire
Samuel Rogers Son M 0 Manchester, Lancashire
Rose Lee Lodger F 23 Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Thomas McNulty Lodger M 33 Ireland

Household ID: 238330629
Record Type: Household
Line Number: 1

Rose

That’s the 1911 I mentioned, but couldn’t; C&P - thanks for posting

Which 1924 death is his?

How has the link been proved between the man who married in 1905 and the one who married in 1875?

Re the 1924 death -

ROGERS, SAMUEL 72
GRO Reference: 1924 M Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 362


Bits copied from the other (main) thread -


Dea posted:
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1924
Surname Forename(s) Age or Date of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
ROGERS Samuel 72 Cheetham Manchester CHE/179/47

Samuel said,
All of his family were in involved with horses. on my mam and dads marriage
certificate 1938 it had Samuel father deceased Cab Proprieter.

Dea said:
The 1924 death of a Samuel Rogers was for a Cab Driver at 123 Crescent Road - This was the address for the Workhouse.


Samuel said, re Minnie's death:
It said Minnie widow of Samuel Rogers Horse and Cab Proprieter


Samuel said:
I phoned up the cemetery [ Philips Park Cemetery ] and ask for info on the information you gave me.
They checked the 1919 and said he wasn,t a cab driver but the 1924 was.
I went to the cemetery. And to my surprise Minnie had a grave it was a paupers
Grave but you could pay and the council would put the name and death on it.

Isaac Rogers
Gender: Male
Age: 11
Relationship: Boarder
Birth Year: 1880
Birth Place: Spitalfields, London, England
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Residence Place: London, Bethnal Green, London, England
Registration District: Bethnal Green
Sub registration district: Bethnal Green East
ED, Institution or Vessel: 13a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 271
Folio: 10
Household Members:

Address Palastine Place . Hebrew boys and girls school

Unfortunately, (two of) the witnesses to the 1875 marriage were not related to the bride

Marriages Jun 1869 (>99%)
Rogers Abigail Bethnal Green 1c 397
Tallack Edward Henry Bethnal Green 1c 397

Can't make out the name of the third witness with any degree of certainty

I only see two witnesses and the celebrant on that marriage cert.

As ErikaH says, the witnesses were not related to the couple - they both witnessed other marriages in that church. In fact, one of them, Emma Edwards, witnessed five marriages on that one day alone - April 12th 1869.

The celebrant was J C Tattersall.

EDIT:

Sorry, just realised that ErikaH was talking about the 1875 marriage of Samuel, and not the 1869 marriage.

Abigail and Edward Tallack were witnesses to Samuel’s marriage in 1875……..as she was a Rogers one assumes she was related to Samuel

Abigail Rogers
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936
Name: Abigail Rogers
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1849
Marriage Date: 12 Apr 1869
Marriage Place: St James the Great, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets, England
Father: Isaac Rogers , deceased <<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse: Edward Tallack
Register Type: Parish Register


Address of both: 4 Pollard Row