Genealogy Chat

DEREK ,please don't make the trip, i can see how busy you are,
and did you get to Matlock before it snows , and extra cheese on mine if you do go.

Derek, I have a spare 6 hours next Wednesday (and the next 6 Wednesdays) in between teaching, from 11 .am. to 5 p.m. Allowing 30 mins from Derby to Matlock and the same back, can you advise what to ask for? I assume a microfiche reader at least? Will someone direct me to the right films to look at? Last time I went I was just directed to a load of boxes and didn't know where to start.

To refresh your memory. The main focus is Thomas Needham. Thomas Needham appears to be baptised twice, Jan 1800 Monyash (Parish Registers) and Feb 1800 at Chelmorton (Bishops Transcripts). Parents in both cases Joseph and Mary, according to IGI. I want to find both records if I can.

If I go to the records office what info do I need to take, and what questions do I need to ask? I know I have to take ID and the rest, but what questions do I need to ask re finding the people I want?

I really got lost last time I went, it was a fruitless journey.

Moving on, I also have a Joseph Needham (of Flagg) marrying Mary Dawson (of Chelmorton) at Bakewell 23/2/1792. I would like to check out if they are the parents of one of the above Thomas Needhams.

I suppose that is enough for one session of 5 hours, do you think?

Advise if you will.

Margaret

Margaret........I am about to PM you....Derek

Margaret..five hours is a very long time at matlock!! trust me.....

Margaret......I found the Joseph and mary needham marriage at Bakewell 1792.........but they had no children at Bakewell. There is a 1793 baptism for Thomas needham but his parents are Thomas and Ann....any good?

Derek

Margaret.Since Joseph Needham (of Flagg) and Mary Dawson (of Chelmorton) only had one child (Thomas 01.01.1800) at Monyash.....do you think it possible that soon after the baptism they moved back to Chelmorton and the child was either registered at Chelmorton, OR simply listed in IGI as FROM Chelmorton(February 1800).?????????

Derek

Derek, the Thomas Needham I am looking for was more likely born 1801 or 1802 according to censuses, and also according to censuses he was born in Tideswell (and lived in Tideswell). However, the nearest birth/baptisms are the one/two at Chelmorton and Monyash. Neither of them may be correct. Thus his parents may not be Joseph and Mary at all.

Margaret

Derek, just checked my Tideswell CD. There is a Thomas Needham, wife Elizabeth, with 5 daughters baptised at Tideswell - Hannah, Ann, Mary, Hannah 2 and Elizabeth (1791-1800). It would be perfect if the actual registers show they had a son Thomas who has been missed off the CD (and off the IGI).

Margaret

Margaret..you disappoint me!!.....You cannot acept within even five years any birth dates of anyone.. on the censuses, and indeed Parish registers almost always show them to be wrong.....and to suggest that Valerie Neal in whom I have the utmost faith..AND IGI would miss the one entry that might solve your problem is, frankly,as likely as me winning the Lottery.(and don't forget that PR's show Baptisms, which can be as much a months after the Births......So Thomas Needham 1800 Monyash, is in fact born 1799..or even 1798.

Hello Derek, can i just tug on your trouser leg for this one please?,
you found marriage for Samuel Hoskin- Mary Purseglove 1791,,Old Brampton did you manage to find anything on Mary?..... (( ".didn't check Purseglove..but i will!.........Derek")) thankyou, gill.

Lots of snow up there?

Hi gill..Its actually Mary PURSLOVE.although it may be that its interchangeable with Purseglove. All I have is that she is OF Old Brampton at the time of her marriage..but not Baptised there. Which is exactly the same problem i have with my Ann Gregory..there are plent of Ann gregory's that fit but no way of knowing which one is right.......exactly the same applies to your Mary Purslove..

Sorry

Derek...........yes plenty of snow..having the day off!!

Margaret......late last night i went through evry entry for THOMAS NEEDHAM that i could find on the census, and through as many of my parish records as i could before i gave up.
Census 1841 gives 37 Thomas needham's in derbyshire..three of which are entered as circa 1801....Parish rcords give dtaes from 1796 -1806.
It's a nightmare..becasue there are 43 Thomas needhams on the 1851 census..some of them are repeats of 1841, but with changes in birthdates.proving the danger of relying on census dates.
1841 census of course only gives derbyshire..1851 give place in Derbyshire..which is where your Thomas from Tideswell comes from...

Going to parish records..here are some of the things I found

Thomas and Mary Needham.from Norton (census 1796) PRS 1801

Thomas needham Bapt 1801 Ashford in the water married to Esther

Thomas Needham 1801 and Hannah 1791 (1851 census) were married at Eyam 19.05.1822 (PR Eyam..he is from Great Hucklow)

Thomas Needham 1796 Monyash son of Samuel and Ann married Mary..he is a Farmer.


1851 Census has thomas needham from Flagg (1801) married to Eliza b 1818

So where does this mysterious thomas fit into your tree?? With you permission i'm going to examine your tree and see if i can find any clues.

Derek

Derek..,that word again.(...OF...)so what next ,do you just come to a grinding halt?so frustrating..... GGGGGGGRRRRRRRR! gill

so frustrated i'm going to get a big stick.....poke my tortoises......and wake them up!.......HA .HA. ...... forgot to thank you Derek, THANKYOU. gill

Hi, could you see if a Ada Ethel House was born in Derbyshire and or baptised there too ? poss born sept 1904. Many thanks
Rachie

I'm sorry Rachie..most Parish records..Baptisms at least..come to a halt 1837 or shortly thereafter..when Census records take over.
Your only hope is FreeBmd..I'll have a look on Ancestry for you..but no promises

ADDITION:.....Ada Ethel House birth registered 3rd Quarter 1904.. UTTOXETER Staffordshire Folio 6b Page 395.


Good luck

Derek

Thank you anyway was worth a go.
Many thanks
Rachie

Rachie...did you read my addition..I edited my message to include the info you wanted........though Staffordshire is outside my range

Derek

Hi Derek,

It is all very messy and as you say, nothing is guaranteed. The following is a combination of evidence and intelligent guesswork. All in Tideswell.

Your last post says in 1851 Thomas born Flagg is living with Eliza, the census says Tideswell. According to me the Thomas born Flagg goes on to be an innkeeper all his life.

The story starts with Eleanor Ann Brightmore born 1880, father James, mother Mary nee Needham (cert). Marriage cert 1876 gives Mary's father as Edward and her age as 24.

In 1871, Mary age 19 is living with Edward (48) and wife Ann. But she is stated as a niece (2 other girls are daughters).

Birth cert 27/2/1852 shows mother Sarah Needham, no father.

Sarah Needham (spinster) married James Fearn in 1860. In 1861 they, 3 kids and "wife's daughter" Mary Needham age 9 are together. Sarah died in 1863, which might explain why Mary was packed off to "uncle" Edward.

No sign of Sarah aged 24 in 1851, tried various spellings.

In 1841, Sarah 14 is with father Thomas 35, Mary 35, Thomas 10, Elizabeth 6 and Ruth 4. Mary (nee Swindell) is Thomas's second wife, married 25/12/1833, mother of two youngest kids. Thomas's first wife is Margaret Hill, children Edward (b 1813 - living a few doors away in 1841, married to Mary in 1851 - he is supposedly Mary's "uncle"), Marianne (died 3 months), Sarah, Thomas, and William (died 3 days).

That's all we know of Sarah. Buried with the Fearn family in the churchyard.

Back to Thomas, marriage to first wife Margaret gives no father, neither does marriage to Mary Swindell. Mary dies in 1842 (I think).

Here is where it gets fuzzier. In 1851 Thomas is married to Eliza, with children Elizabeth and Ruth (Mary Swindell's kids). There is a marriage in Nov 1850 to Eliza Reece. The parish records CD states his father as William, a butcher. Now I daren't question the reliability of the CD! There IS a butcher William, wife Elizabeth, but their son Thomas is baptised 1815, with several other children (possibly same family, father is a butcher on two of the baptisms) baptised between 1811 and 1831, all at Tideswell. I originally thought "my" Thomas might simply have been baptised as an adult, but there is a Thomas age 25 at Town End in 1841, Pot Market in 1851, Back Lane 1861 - and he isn't married to Eliza.

If you can fathom all the above - good on yer! But I'm beginning to think "my" Thomas was never baptised.

Best wishes

Margaret

Hi margaret...I'm very determined!..The first thing is that Flagg IS Tideswell, as in a village in the Parish of Tideswell..so there is no confusion there.

More later.

Derek