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Arthur (Lewis) Jones went to America.

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Frances

Frances Report 10 Feb 2013 20:35

Astonishing! I should just have left you all to it!
Yes this must be Arthur who visited my grandparents.
I see that no-one has been able to find his record of sailing out because I have been searching for this and also failing to find it.
To see that they sailed on the Lusitania!
I need to find out who Spencer Jones is- have you noticed how many carpenters there are? It is said that Lewis Jones also took teeth out and ran the local pub. There are people who remember sitting in half finished coffins to have their teeth extracted.
I am also going to find out if Arthur and Lena had children as they would also be my second cousins. Interesting that Lena's name is (Lena) Frances Jones as that is my name.
I shall be ringing the States again shortly.
Thank you so much again. Makes me feel like giving up the day job!

mgnv

mgnv Report 11 Feb 2013 03:20

Frances - A couple of things - firstly, like the UK, the US has no national system of BMD registration, and every country/state has it's own rules abt what must be rego'ed, and when, and what can be released, and when.
To get a US record, I'ld first go to http://www.cyndislist.com/us/ then pick the state and proceed thence.

Secondly, US nominal census day was 1 June 1850-1900, then 15/4/1910, 1/1/1920, 2/4/1930, 1/1/1940.
The US census wasn't conducted like the UK one. In the US, the enumerator went door to door and gathered the details on the door-step.
He had abt a month in rural districts and a couple of weeks in urban ones (I read this somewhere, but I don't recall the exact details, nor the census to which it applied).
I don't know abt US enumeration districts, but I know some Canadian districts covered over 500 sq miles.
It would be insane to adopt the UK model, having some guy go out and drop off census forms, then have him go round again after census day and pick up the completed forms and, when necessary, help fill them out.
With a 500 sq m district, obviously nearly all the time is spent travelling around the district.

As you'll see from the 1910 header, this form was filled out 14 d after the nominal day - it was supposed to reflect the usual h/h as of 15/4/1910, so newly dead folk would be included, and the newly born omitted (in theory).
I don't know if this is your David - he's a laborer in a coal mine, and his landlord says he's single.
It wasn't unusual for the man or an older son to go out first, get stuff (jobs, lodging, etc) sorted, then send for the rest of the family.

name: David Jones
birthplace: Wales
relationship to head of household:
residence: Scranton Ward 1, Lackawanna, Pennsylvania
marital status: Single
race : White
gender: Male
immigration year: 1900
father's birthplace: Wales
mother's birthplace: Wales
family number: 195
page number: 11
Household Gender Age Birthplace
self Elias Thomas M 35y Wales
wife Sarah A Thomas F 48y Wales
son Thomas J Thomas M 16y Pennsylvania
son Joseph Thomas M 13y Pennsylvania
son Luvie Thomas M 10y Pennsylvania
William Jones M 38y Wales
David Jones M 23y Wales
Arthur John M 21y Wales
Citing this Record
"United States Census, 1910," index and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MG4N-8KC : accessed 11 Feb 2013), David Jones in household of Elias Thomas, Scranton Ward 1, Lackawanna, Pennsylvania; citing sheet 11A, family 195, NARA microfilm publication T624, FHL microfilm 1375371.

Scranton in Lackawanna Co was in the NE corner(ish) of PA

Magnify 4 clicks, then save image:
http://archive.org/stream/13thcensus1910po1358unit#page/n710/mode/1up
http://archive.org/stream/14thcensusofpopu207unit#page/n169/mode/1up

Re the 1940 Lucy - doesn't look like the 1920 Louisa to me, but I don't see a marr (but I don't really know where he was in between).

EDIT I don't want to mislead - the 1940 Mt Rainier is a town in MD, abutting DC.

Frances

Frances Report 11 Feb 2013 22:48

Having seen how much work is involved I appreciate your help even more. Do you mean then that there isn't a single collection deposited anywhere in the States?
For example , I see that as Arthur was buried in Arlington that his wife wasn't buried with him. Can you tell me the steps I follow to ascertain where she is buried. (Lena Frances Jones)

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 11 Feb 2013 23:26

Frances, that's right - the US records are generally held by state, not like here.

Can you give us a rough idea of dates for Lena (when/where born)?

mgnv

mgnv Report 12 Feb 2013 10:34

MC - what makes you think the US situation is "not like here". My kids ancestors were all born in the UK, but to get their b.certs, my kids would have to buy from Southport, Dublin and Edinburgh.

Really, the only difference is there's 51 states and territories in the USA, rather than just the 4 repositories of UK certs - (I don't need to use Belfast).

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 12 Feb 2013 19:09

Well 4 is a darn site easier than 51!

For England (which is a country all on it's own and note a state) there is one central repository.

mgnv

mgnv Report 12 Feb 2013 21:45

You can say pretty much the same thing abt many states, e.g.,

For Maryland (which was a colony all on it's own and not a country) there is now one central repository.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 12 Feb 2013 22:58

mgnv - we have had this debate before!

Frances

Frances Report 14 Mar 2013 19:11

Me again!
Good evening from a cold Anglesey.
I have had a great time following up leads on my family tree and now have two further queries if anyone could find it in their hearts to help again?
1. Spencer C. Jones aged 21 sailed to the U.S. with David's wife and children. I have now found out that he was Spencer Curwen Jones born 17/4/1890 in Carmarthen South Wales. He was one of the sons of Thomas Caeralaw Jones and Catherine Jones. Thomas's brother was Lewis Jones- father of the David we found above. Spencer and David were therefore 1st cousins.
I have found Spencer in 1917 in Scranton City No. 2 Pennsylvania. His draft is on line.
In the 1940 census we learn that he has a wife Alice who is 39 and was born in Wales and a daughter Irene 23 born in Pennsylvania and a son William 19 born in Missouri . The family lives in Detroit where Spencer works on the Detroit Times. His next relative is Albert Davis who lives at 3003 Garland Avenue.
I can't seem to go any further.
a.When and where did he die and where is he buried. Similarly his wife.
b. Where did they marry- she would have been only16 when Irene was born.
c. Can I find out whether they have any ancestors alive?

2. The second query should be available to me in the |U.K. but I'm finding it difficult.I can't find Thomas Caeralaw Jones in the 1911 census. I know that he was alive- he died on the 2nd August 1924 or 1929. In the 1891 and 1901 censuses he lived at 16 Bridge St Carmarthen. However from July of 1898 to June of 1900 he lost 3 daughters and his wife. I can only think that he may have gone to live with a relative but in 1914 there is a photo of him where he is described as living in the Emlyn Arms Llanarthney.
He was born in 1854 in Llanarthney. Catherine was born in 1857- I think it reads in Conwil which is now known as Cynwyl Elfed outside Carmarthen.

Am I hoping for too much?

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 14 Mar 2013 19:36

It doesn't give an age for Alice on his naturalisation, just that she was born Aberdeen ?? South Wales.

U.S., Naturalization Records - Original Documents, 1795-1972 (World Archives Project)
Name: Spencer Curwen Jones [Spencer Jones]
Age: 29
Birth Date: 17 Apr 1889
Birth Location: Carmarthen, S Wales
Spouse: Alice
Children: Irene born 13 Dec 1916
Arrival Year: 1910
Issue Date: 28 May 1918
State: Pennsylvania
Locality, Court: Middle District of Pennsylvania, District Court

He was a press man, living 1118 Price Street.

Referees were George Christopher Stephens, a pressman and Frank J Jones, a clerk. Both of Scranton.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 14 Mar 2013 19:50

There's not much info on this but Spencer did live in Detroit .....

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=JON&GSpartial=1&GSbyrel=all&GSst=24&GScntry=4&GSsr=8441&GRid=13081478&

alviegal

alviegal Report 14 Mar 2013 20:34

He was 25 and she was 17 when they married. Both from South Wales and both emigrated in 1910.


1930 United States Federal Census about William Jones
Name: William Jones
Gender: Male
Birth Year: abt 1921
Birthplace: Missouri
Race: White
Home in 1930: Detroit, Wayne, Michigan
View Map
Marital Status: Single
Relation to Head of House: Son
Father's Name: Spencer S Jones
Father's Birthplace: Wales
Mother's name: Alice Jones
Mother's Birthplace: Wales
Occupation:

Education:

Military service:

Rent/home value:

Age at first marriage:

Parents' birthplace:

View image
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Spencer S Jones 38, pressman
Alice Jones 30
Irene Jones 13
William Jones 9

alviegal

alviegal Report 14 Mar 2013 21:02

Is this him again? From http://www.ellisisland.org


First Name: Spencer
Last Name: Jones
Ethnicity: Great Britain, Welsh
Last Place of Residence: Carmanthen, Wales
Date of Arrival: Oct 31, 1913
Age at Arrival: 23Y Gender: M Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: Lusitania
Port of Departure: Liverpool
Manifest Line Number: 0017

He is with Louisa Jones 38 and Lloyd, her son 11 and is described as cousin. He is a carpenter and his father is Thomas Jones of Bridge Street, Carmarthen. Louisa has a friend, Mrs Jones, Myrtle ??, Nantyandy ?, Carmarthen.
Louisa was born in Llanarthy and was going to her husband in Chinchilla, Pa.


EDIT Sorry, Louisa is 28. Thanks MC.


UK Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960 about Spencer C Jones
Name: Spencer C Jones
Birth Date: abt 1891
Age: 22
Port of Departure: New York, New York, United States
Arrival Date: 5 Sep 1913
Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland
Ship Name: Cedric
Search Ship Database: View the 'Cedric' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: White Star Dominion Line
Official Number: 115354


There is a Griffith Jones 28, attorney also travelling. No idea if he is connected or not.

Frances

Frances Report 14 Mar 2013 22:18

Wow! You've come up trumps once more.
Aberdeen is in Scotland and I suspect that the person writing down the information may just have written down what he thought he heard and maybe a name he was familiar with. If it was Wales (and she is mentioned as having been born in Wales)she may be from Aberdare. That is the place name which most closely resembles Aberdeen in Wales.
The Ellis Island extract refers to Myrtle- this is Myrtle Hill in Maesybont, the house next to the chapel where many of the family are buried. I don't know this Louisa though but that is another avenue to explore. Similarly Lloyd and Griffith Jones. This is definitely the correct Spencer though -by refernce to his father Thomas Jones. This also answers my 2nd question as to where Thomas was living at the time of the 1911 census. I just don't know why I can't find him on it.
I also think that the death record is probably correct. When I was searching the American records over the past few nights I noticed that the name Spencer was very unusual. Where the second name was given as Curwen it was unique!
I have a note from all the records I have looked at that Spencer and Alice may have married in 1917 in Philadelphia but I don't know where I got this information from! From the census information she would only have been 9 years old if she emigrated in 1910 so unless they returned to Wales to marry then it took place in the States.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 14 Mar 2013 23:06

Frances, the immigration record that Alviegal posted was the same one that I posted 28 February - Louisa was the wife of David Thomas Jones. They were the parents of Arthur who was the original subject of your query.

Frances

Frances Report 14 Mar 2013 23:20

MarieCeleste- I can't find an entry for 28th Feb. The last one before tonight was12th Feb?

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 14 Mar 2013 23:31

Yes, sorry Frances, it was on the 10 February on page 2.

mgnv

mgnv Report 15 Mar 2013 06:16

MC's post said Spencer's dob=17/4/1889, but

Births Jun 1890 (>99%)
Jones Spencer Curwen Carmarthen 11a 1010

I'll believe the 17/4 bit, but he lied abt his age, it seems.


Maybe:
Marriages Dec 1876 (>99%)
DAVIES David Carmarthen 11a 1162
JONES Ruth Carmarthen 11a 1162
JONES Thomas Carmarthen 11a 1162
LLOYD Catherine Carmarthen 11a 1162



1891 Wales Census Transcription
Street:16 BRIDGE STREET
Parish:CARMARTHEN ST PETER
Town:CARMARTHEN
City:CARMARTHEN
County:Carmarthenshire
Country:WALES
Ecclesiastical District:ST PETER
Municipal Ward:EASTERN
Parliamentary Borough:CARMARTHEN & LLANELLY
Registration District:CARMARTHEN
Registration Sub-District 3A Carmarthen
Enumeration District:4
Archive Reference:RG12 Piece Number:4517 Folio:88 Page:6 -> Folio:89 Page:7

T CAERALAND JONES 1857 34 Llanarthney, Carmarthenshire HEAD M Tailor
CATHERINE JONES 1854 37 Conwil, Carmarthenshire WIFE M
D DANIEL JONES 1878 13 Llanddarog, Carmarthenshire SON Scholar
LLOYD E JONES 1879 12 Llanddarog, Carmarthenshire SON Scholar
HERBERT SYDNEY JONES 1881 10 Llanddarog, Carmarthenshire SON Scholar
ELENOR ANNE JONES 1883 8 Carmarthen St Peters DAUGHTER Scholar
JOHN LEWIS JONES 1885 6 Carmarthen SON Scholar
MARY MATILDA JONES 1887 4 Carmarthen St Peters DAUGHTER
WILLIE THOMAS JONES 1889 2 Carmarthen St Peters SON
SPENCER CARVER JONES 1891 0[11m] Carmarthen St Peters SON
EDWIN JONES 1877 14 Llandefeilog, Carmarthenshire APPRENTICE S Apprentice Tailor


Can't find them in 1920

1930 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X79Q-BXY
Head Spencer S Jones M 38 Wales
Wife Alice Jones F 30 Wales
Daughter Irene Jones F 13 Pennsylvania
Son William Jones M 9 Missouri

Magnify 4 clicks, then save image
http://archive.org/stream/michigancensus00reel1038#page/n1080/mode/1up
[addy=3139 Harrison Ave, Detroit, Wayne Co, MI]

alviegal

alviegal Report 15 Mar 2013 11:03

MC, if I read things correctly, you found the first record for Spencer, Louisa and Minnie emigrating in 1910.
Spencer and Louisa have returned to Wales and then returned to US with Lloyd in 1913.

Liz :-)

Frances

Frances Report 15 Mar 2013 17:52

It's a different Louisa. David's wife Louisa was born around 1886 and so would be 27 in 1913. She didn't have a son Lloyd
She must either be a wife to one of Thomas's brother's whom I haven't yet tracked down ( the remaining brothers are David born in 1850 0r William born in 1866) or otherwise a relative through Spencer's Mother. I think that this is more likely as Spencer's mother's maiden name was Lloyd and she has called her son Lloyd. It would also explain why David and Spencer left for the States if there was a family member there.
I need to trace this person. And who is Griffith Jones the attorney? I don't think that there were any attorneys in the family at that time.