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noble headache

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Deb needs a change

Deb needs a change Report 4 Nov 2008 08:12

Hi Rose,

Can you see the neighbours?



Deb:)

FannyByGaslight

FannyByGaslight Report 4 Nov 2008 14:57

Had a look for the nieghbours but nobody interesting.
Trawled for an Aubrey marriage up to 1950 and found none but wonder if he died in the war?will go furthe but also wonder if he was fostered out and had his name changed,will also trawl for his death,oh happy hours.
i have found henrys 1st marriage in 1934 in reading to madeline,sent for it hoping for witness help, with my luck prob a waste of money!!but at least i know i have the right trail for sure now.
Found an edith thorn 1890 with sister annie 1887 but dont think thats them somehow.
Will prob have to wait for 1911 census to try to get annie at work in reading,wish i had an address to send for it now.
she could well have been simple ,suppose she could still have been a housemiad although i think its most likely she was poorly after henrys birth as well but i discount nothing until i know otherwise
cant find emma or alfred noble on 1901 in the area to discount that but will keep trying.
wil try address searches in 1901 for 41 russell street reading as per her place of residence in 1913 and also 34 highgrove street reading as per aubrey ,annie and edith thorns address on aubreys b,c,off to sign up to 1901 online.
thank you all for this help i am most grateful
vivienne
edit ..that all made clear sense Deb thank you.

Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 4 Nov 2008 20:46

There are 42 Aubreys living in Berkshire on the 1901.

It occurs to me that Annie wouldn't have had an income as the pregnancy progressed. No one would have employed a pregnant servant. I wonder if she went to the parish for help and ended up living in Edith's house as a formal arrangement. We mustn't assume that Edith was the same age as Annie.

As an asside, my grandmothers birth was registered by the woman who lived upstairs who was present at the birth. She wasn't related. Perhaps a declaration isn't needed if the parent is dead or the informant was present at the birth.

I've checked ancestry deaths 1984-2005 for a male death whose birthdate was 18-5-1917 but there are 844 of both sexes. No Aubrey. There are 2 who died in Berkshire but found both births in the relevant quarter.

I've also checked incoming passengers on Ancestry on the basis that orphans sent to Canada or Australia often visited their home country. No Aubey Noble/Nobel. I can only suggest a long trawl through the death indexes, check out the Home children websites etc

FannyByGaslight

FannyByGaslight Report 5 Nov 2008 00:44


thank you janet
my next trawl was for his death but ive never had to look for.home children. how to do this please?
vivienne

Quinsgran

Quinsgran Report 5 Nov 2008 04:44

google British Home Children

FannyByGaslight

FannyByGaslight Report 6 Nov 2008 01:10


any body able to check" outgoing" passengers after 1917 please as im not having much luck with a death or marriage or with home children for aubrey
also of course there is the possibility he is still alive but i cant find him on any 192 things
thanks all
vivienne
p.s off to bed now will look in tommorow

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 6 Nov 2008 03:02

Hello Vivienne. I see you're in Wales. Is there any possible connection to Wales for the Noble and Thorn family names?

Marriages Dec 1911
Davies Richard J Newport M 11a 391
* Edwards Edith M Newport M 11a 391
* THORN James T Newport M 11a 391

That was in Dec quarter 1911 so it should show the spouses' surnames but it does not. So only the certificate would show who married whom. There were Thorn-Edwards children born in Wales, but only in 1920, 1922 and 1924, and one in Gloucester in 1929. Since the first child is Caroline, they probably belong to Caroline Edwards and Frederick Thorn who married in Chepstow 1919.

Name: Annie Noble
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Newport M
County: Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 221

In the 1901 census, there is an Annie Noble who has been spelled incorrectly at Ancestry.

Name: Annis Noble
Age in 1901: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Risca
Ecclesiastical parish: Risca St Michael
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Newport (Monmouthshire)
Sub registration district: Rogerstone
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 65

Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Noble 38
Annis Noble 11
Chares Noble 15
Garnet Noble 11 months
George Noble 44
Oliver Noble 2
Reuben G Noble 13
William Noble 7

The girls could have been childhood friends (or cousins, that would take more investigating).

Name: Edith Edwards
Age in 1901: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Joseph
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Female
Where born: Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Risca
Ecclesiastical parish: Risca St Michael
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Newport (Monmouthshire)
Sub registration district: Rogerstone
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 72

Household Members:
Name Age
Ada Edwards 10
Charles Edwards 17
Edith Edwards 12
Florrie Edwards 6
George Edwards 15
Hannah Edwards 48
Joseph Edwards 42
John Fry 20

This looks like the only James Thorn in Wales in 1901.

Name: James Thorn
Age in 1901: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Adopted Son
Gender: Male
Where born: Dinas, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil Parish: Ystradyfodwg
Ecclesiastical parish: Llwynypia St Andrew
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Registration district: Pontypridd
Sub registration district: Ystradyfodwg
ED, institution, or vessel: 50
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 115

Household Members:
Name Age
Eliz May Morgan 26
William Morgan 30
James Thorn 8

The only James T Thorn born 1880-1895 was this one.

Births Sep 1883
Thorn James Thomas W.Ham 4a 141

And he seems to be in Berkshire in 1901, so maybe he is a better possibility for the James T Thorn who married Edith Edwards.

Name: James Thorn
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Earls Conrt, London, England
Civil Parish: Speen
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Marsh Benham
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Newbury
Sub registration district: Speen
Occupation: Groom - Domestic

You would have to get some certificates to check out these possibilities. The Edwards-Thorn marriage certificate would probably help.

The possibility would be that Edith Edwards and Annie Noble were friends or family in Risca and went to Berkshire to work as domestics, and Edith Edwards met James Thorn there and married him at home in Risca.

This looks like that Annie Noble's parents' marriage:

Marriages Mar 1883
Morgan John Benjamin Newport, M. 11a 229
* NOBLE George Newport M 11a 229
Williams Alice Newport M 11a 229
* Williams Anne Newport M 11a 229

and Edith Edwards' parents:

Marriages Mar 1884
David George Newport, M. 11a 296
* EDWARDS Joseph Newport M. 11a 296
* FRY Hannah Newport, M. 11a 296
Keech Sarah Ann Newport Mon 11a 296

so they look like friends rather than cousins.

I don't know whether this will be helpful, but it may be worth looking into.

FannyByGaslight

FannyByGaslight Report 6 Nov 2008 14:25


Thank you ever so for all that work evie.
I am most grateful.
Will spend sometime looking at all and send for the m.c. you suggested,what the heck only another £7 if its no good.
thank you again
vivienne

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 6 Nov 2008 14:42

You're welcome, Vivienne.

I had also meant to check WWI casualties for James T Thorn (since Edith was the "occupier" in 1917, her husband could have been at the war, or could have died).

Here he is (except that the age is off for the James Thorn whose birth I showed).

Name: THORN
Initials: J T
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Serjeant
Regiment/Service: Monmouthshire Regiment
Unit Text: 1st/1st
Age: 43
Date of Death: 18/10/1918
Service No: 226331
Additional information: Husband of Edith May Williams (formerly Thorn), of 26, Graig View, Ynysddu, Newport.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Close to North side of church.
Cemetery: MYNYDDISLWYN (ST. TUDWR) CHURCHYARD

Edith had remarried by the time the record was created:

Marriages Mar 1920
Thorn Edith M Williams Newport M. 11a 508
Williams William Thorn Newport M. 11a 508

This is the only James T Thorn born around 1875:

Births Mar 1875
Thorn James Thomas Plymouth 5b 239

And this seems to be him in 1901:

Name: James Thorn
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Sophia
Gender: Male
Where born: Exmouth, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Withycombe Raleigh
Ecclesiastical parish: Withycombe Raleigh
Town: Exmouth
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Occupation: Carrier
(His mother is a Carrier [something] and both she and James are shown as Employer.)

The Edith-James marriage certificate should confirm which James Thorn she married.

In 1891, James Thorn's father is James Thorn, a farmer.

Did you know that the name Aubrey means "noble"?

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 6 Nov 2008 15:09

My mistake -- James Thorn son of Sophia is this James:

Births Dec 1875
Thorn James Henry L St. Thomas 5b 41

1881:

Name: James H. Thorn
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Sophia Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Exmouth, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Withycombe Rawleigh
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address: 12 Princess St
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: St Thomas
Sub registration district: Exmouth
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page

Household Members:
Name Age
Emma M. Thorn 2
Fanny Jane Thorn 10
James Thorn 45 (occupation Carrier)
James H. Thorn 5
John C. Thorn 7
Sophia Ann Thorn 45
Sophia Ann Thorn 14

That's interesting. James Henry Thorn.

This would be James T Thorn in 1881:

Name: James Thorn
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Son
Father's Name: J.J.
Mother's Name: Johanna
Gender: Male
Where born: Plymouth, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Plymouth Charles The Martyr
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address: 23 Vauxhall St
Registration district: Plymouth
Sub registration district: Charles
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page

Household Members:
Name Age
Florence Thorn 10
James Thorn 6
J.J. Thorn 33 (Seaman Royal Navy)
Johanna Thorn 36
Richd. Thorn 8
Willm. Thorn 1

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 6 Nov 2008 15:18

In 1891, James T Thorn was in Essex:

Name: James Thom
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Johanna
Gender: Male
Where born: Plymouth
Civil Parish: Walthamstow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviours
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

FannyByGaslight

FannyByGaslight Report 6 Nov 2008 18:26

Henry james Noble died in wales in the 60s and his second marriage to my xs mum was here and shes welsh,what he came here for i dont know.
No i didnt know aubrey meant noble so thank you for that.
William is a name that came up once in this context.
I named my son William and she asked why william and then said his grandfather had a william on his side but i cant remember in what way,but then it was 30 years ago and a very short conversation,so maybe when edith married william wiliams they brought the boys up as thiers and mam meant her husbands stepfather,anyway she seemed really pleased with his name.
but of course its all suppose at the moment.
still got a bit more trawling to do on a marriage and death of aubrey as im determined to find out what happened to him if i can.
Another thought is that my mother in laws father was in the army and could well have met henry james that way and brought him here for a visit.
thank you so much for the input "everyone "as its nice to have others ideas on things to think of and not just my own.
vivienne

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 6 Nov 2008 18:51

Someone here at Genes Reunited has an Edith Edwards born in 1885 in "Risa", Monmouthshire, in her tree.

But the Edith Edwards as above is the only one in the censuses in Risca.

It might be worth contacting that member to see what she knows.

There are also members with a variety of James Thorns born around 1875 in Devon.

FannyByGaslight

FannyByGaslight Report 6 Nov 2008 18:56


Thank you once agian for that evie i wiil send messages ,hope i get some replies to the good.
vivienne

FannyByGaslight

FannyByGaslight Report 20 Nov 2008 18:48


Hi all.
recieved the m.c for edith may edwards and james thomas thorn today
dec 9 1911 newport
james thomas thorn age 36 widower,collier, ad ynysddu
father james thomas thorn kaoal?pensioner
edith may edwards ,age 28 widow, ad ynysddu father ,william virgo collier.
wits
alfred john thorn
james thomas thorn and
hannah coles whom i make her married sister going on my looking for a hannah edwards /coles marriage
Crying into my tea as the annie i was hoping for isnt there as a witness.
Any ideas where to start next please?
thanks
vivienne

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 20 Nov 2008 19:05

Aargh. If I'm following, Edith Edwards was born Edith Virgo?

Here's a Thorn-Virgo birth:

Births Sep 1912
THORN Florence M Virgo Newport M. 11a 655

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 20 Nov 2008 19:28

Edith's first marriage:

Marriages Jun 1906
Edwards Eliakim Pontypridd 11a 839
Virgo Edith May Pontypridd 11a 839

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 20 Nov 2008 19:32

And the only James Thomas Thorn born 1873-1876 is this one:

Births Mar 1875
THORN James Thomas Plymouth 5b 239


and this could still be a complete goose chase!

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 20 Nov 2008 19:39

The closest match for Edith May Virgo:

Births Sep 1884
Virgo Edith May Westbury S. 6a 243

And this looks like her in 1901:

Name: Edith M Vergo
[Edith M Virgo]
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Decimus
Mother's Name: Elizabeth M
Gender: Female
Where born: Newnham, Gloucestershire, England
(which is in Westbury on Severn district)
Civil Parish: Lydney
Town: Lydney
County/Island: Monmouthshire

except ...

George Friend 21
Albert R Vergo 8
Decimus Vergo 48
Edith M Vergo 19
Elizabeth M Vergo 47
Frederick C Vergo 13

Her father is Decimus. Aargh. Because the good thing about that one is that an Ancestry user has corrected the name:

"Consistent with birth and family records"

and could be contacted.

No, never mind -- in 1891, that one is Edith *Maud* Virgo, father Decimus--

Births Sep 1881
Virgo Edith Maud Westbury S. 6a 245

Still on the trail of Edith May ...

FannyByGaslight

FannyByGaslight Report 20 Nov 2008 19:54


Probably is a goose chase but ill keep pegging away at it
eliakim edwards died in 1910 aged 47
20 yrs older than her AND she lost no time in remarrying and then lost another hubby to remarry again
trouble is they are all in newport and not reading and this edith virgo was from gloucester
back to the drawing board
thanks for trying to help
vivienne