General Chat

broggy everyone has diferent opinions and if you wanted a baby you would know or would have been tested to see all am trying to say is a woman who has lost a child should be given the option of registering the death no matter how old or young the child was because at the end of the day its a child even it it never seen the light of day of took its first breath!!

Okay hears my view not based on anything, no experience etc.

There has to be a cut off point.

This has to be a decision made by the two people involved.

There has to be plenty of facts, not statistics, the facts have to be medical not ethical the ethics are left for the two people concerned.

Kaz, the point you made about abortion laws is the one I was initially trying to make by explaining it.

If death certificates were issued for miscarried fetuses, what then? Death certificates are only issued when human beings die.

Not only would abortion be, by definition, a homicide -- the intentional killing of a human being -- but all deaths of fetuses would require death certificates.

What of women and their families who don't *want* their miscarriages to be "officially" called deaths? Either the miscarriage of a fetus is the death of a human being or it isn't, for "official" purposes.

What of cause of death? What woman wants her miscarriage investigated to see whether she caused it?

A miscarriage is the loss of a potential person. There are many things that *might have been* that cause us great pain, and the loss of a "might have been" child is often one of them. It is not, however, the death of a human being -- a born person who was a member of the *human* family and our society.

So that was my attempt to be gentle in explaining why death certificates are not appropriate or even possible in the case of miscarriage.

Sarah chose to fling insults at women who terminate pregnancies in general, and then to make insulting insinuations about me in particular. Sad.

hi **coal miners daughter** at the moment you do not get anything to confirm the death of your baby unless you where pregnant for 24 weeks then its classed as a still birth and have to register the death but with todays tests etc surely this should give the mother and the family to register the death of their child before this if this is what they want?

if you look back again KathrynB you will see i said a woman should be given the choice to register a death or misscarriage if they wish to this means its not law but is there if they feel this would help

I agree with what you are saying regarding the Certs Kathryn. Thinking it through logically it's not a good idea.

However, having suffered from multiple miscarriages I'd just like to point out that I'd LOVE to know now years on..... what.....if anything........caused them as all tests were inconclusive. WHY is a question a lot of women ask themselves after a miscarriage. I remember wondering after the first one if it was because I drank too much orange juice FGS. My mind was all over the place.

I don't agree with Sarahs views on abortion either however I believe she's entitled to her opinion as are you xx

cmd -- your mother's story is horribly sad. While "officially" recognizing a woman's/family's loss is not appropriate, privately pretending nothing happened is also very unfair.

Unfortunately, in the days before abortion was legal, what happened to your mum was actually not uncommon. Doctors were afraid to perform "abortions" on women whose fetuses had died, lest they be reported and investigated. And the even sadder thing is that some women died from infection if the fetus was not expelled in time; remember, it was then dead tissue. Sadly, after two weeks, your mum's doctor was probably right, that she would not have wanted to see the fetus.

Sarah I don't disagree with you that the growing baby inside you is a person and is a part of your family from the earlierst day.

I knew (by accident, having a scan for a reason totally unconnected to my pregnancy) that my twins were there only 2 weeks after conception - and even then I felt love for them and dreamed of what their and our future would hold.

I don't think that anyone is arguing with how you feel or how valuable the new emerging life is, especially to the family.

also kathryn you say A miscarriage is the loss of a potential person. There are many things that *might have been* that cause us great pain, and the loss of a "might have been" child is often one of them. It is not, however, the death of a human being -- a born person who was a member of the *human* family and our society.
so at what age does a human become a human then because if you carry a child and want it its human before 24 weeks to them and the family maybe not to society but still doesnt mean it doesnt exist does it my point been why cant there be a record for the people that want it for the family of the future!!

Sorry cant read all the posts to ......upsetting

I to lost 3 babies and yes they are people in their own right ......

Why dont you make your own certificates ......I hope this dont upset people here but .....its lovely to have some thing .....

My friend has her daughters feet and hands printed and framed ...its beautiful....

cmd - what you mum & dad went through and how they were handled by the doctor is appaling.

Thank God that doesn't happen now, but I fully understand how your mum will suffer emotionally all her days.

Maria x x

I agree with Kemp & cmd - re either a new "official" cerificate to use in these circumstances, or the family creating their own. It's in the heart and soul of the family that the loss is centred and it would be no less important for being issued by that loving family.

Night all and God Bless

Maria x x

Sarah, I'm sorry that you have chosen not to let go of this bone.

"so at what age does a human become a human"

I didn't say "a human". I said "a human being", a term that has a meaning. A human being is born, human and alive. After death, a human being is a cadaver. Before birth, a human being is a fetus.

That's the nature of life and time -- things change and become other things. Is an acorn an oak tree?

"if you carry a child and want it its human before 24 weeks to them and the family maybe not to society"

Families don't decide these things. Society does. If your dotty great aunt said that her cat was human to her, would you agree that a death certificate should be issue? I think you'd be insulted.

(Editing: excuse me, you managed to trip me up. I have not said that a fetus is not human. Of course it's human. So is my kidney. If your dotty aunt said her cat was *a human being * to her ...)

"still doesnt mean it doesnt exist does it"

No one said that *the fetus* did not exist. It existed. And the woman's and her family's hopes and dreams existed. And women and their families are entitled to grieve their own losses however they see fit.

"my point been why cant there be a record for the people that want it for the family of the future!!"

My point is that what someone may or not want does not determine what a society does.

You are entirely free to create your own record, in the form of a memorial object or written document. You simply are not entitled to demand that a record of something that was *not* the death of a human being be entered in the public records of the deaths of human beings.

Once again: there are very certainly many women who do NOT want public records kept of their private medical events -- that being exactly how they view their own miscarriage.

Your loss is a private event. You really need to stop telling the rest of the world how it must treat it.

cmd -- I didn't want to suggest that directly, because I wasn't sure whether it would help or hurt. I also didn't want to get overly graphic, but I think you get the idea. You know best whether it's wise to mention it. In most cases, I tend to think knowledge is better than not as a general rule, but I would never presume what might be best for anyone I don't know in such sad circumstances. A delicate explanation might at least help her understand that the doctor, for example, really did have her best interests at heart, even if he sounded a bit brutal.

thanks **coal miners daughter** at last someone that gets my point across!!

Kempinastrawhat i am very sorry to hear of your loss i have done own certificate but cant help but feel for everyone that has lost a baby as the people of the future may never know about your loss so it turn the babies we are grieving for will become the forgotten children!!

once again my deepest sympthy goes to anyone that has lost a child know matter how young or old the child/ren where turning off my pc for tonight good nite everyone

Nite Sarah. Nite CMD. Take care xx

Sarah, this is a sad thread and I know how you feel as I have had miscarriages too. However I have added to this post to say that the way that still births were treated in the past was awful. My Mum had my little sister Carol in 1961 17th February to be precise, she was born sleeping and had to be buried in unconsecrated ground. My Mum still grieves after all this time.
Angela

hi small blonde angel i am sorry to hear of your mothers loss things havent changed that much today to what happened in the past all losses i feel arent dealt with in the manner they should be to most of the mothers that have lost a baby one way or the other they feel let down by either the system or hospital its just a sad fact that needs a extreme look over and mothers that have lost their child/ren should let their points know so things can be made a little easier not saying its ever easy but at least you wouldnt feel let down by the system or hospitals

Oh this is a difficult question.

I don't think society can go as far as issuing formal certificates because of all the legal problems involved but grieving parents should be given the chance to mark the fact that their child existed.

Someone I care about made the decision to have an abortion at about 16 weeks. It was the right decision for her but the thought of what might have been is always there. Life is rarely straightforward and choices are often very hard to make.

Oh so sad.

Sue