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birth certificate( new info 3-4-14)

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date


jansmith Report 1 Apr 2010 13:27

seems to match the death info for date of birth then BUT on lancashire site mmn wasManghan?


martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 13:29

hi ann well at least we know we are not going mad so at some point john&mary were together wonder were they were for the 1911 census everything seems to be moulding together bit by bit thanks to you and your persistance with church records


lancashireAnn Report 1 Apr 2010 14:10

I know the name Leicester keeps popping up but i have found a child born to a Michael & Mary Jane formerly Leicester, the above Rose and that marriage of an Ellen Leicester (Glover) so possibly different families. I think I have nor found the right church for baptisms and Norman and siblings are somewhere else. All records are not here and it may be worth contact Oldham for other churchest

I would have thought if Rose Ann was 'Rosey' Jones on her baptism her father would have at least been named as John E or Edward - they were usually quite precise with details on RC regs

off to try and sort out my own Jones lot for a bit now
(I am in the LRO at the moment)


martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 14:17

thanks for all you are doing good luck with your jonses


martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 14:23

guess what i found 1914 leonard mmn lester jul-aug-sept- could the spelling have been changed


lancashireAnn Report 1 Apr 2010 14:45

I guess that means I have the wrong church as I trawled thru baptisms 1914-1916 & did not find a Leonard

As for my Jones - John was born 1853 (don't think birth was registered) guess which year in the whole century is missing from the church I want for baptism!


martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 14:50

poor ann our relations do cause us stress will you be able to track it down


lancashireAnn Report 1 Apr 2010 15:19

you found Leonard - did you find these 2 as well?

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1905
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
JONES Norman Oldham Below Town Oldham LEICESTER OBT/246/373

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1907
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
JONES Arthur Oldham South Oldham LEICESTER


martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 15:25

no ann i didnt mum insisted arthur was the eldest and still does what about this then will check again with her


martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 15:49

ann i think you are on a roll here we have ellen, arthur &leonard with mmn leicester


lancashireAnn Report 1 Apr 2010 16:07

I think it would be well worth you getting that marriage cert of Norman to Annie. It will give an indication of his age (& give definite proof of father & his occupation). If he was b 1915 he would have been a minor & if before 1915 'of full age' but actual age often given.

Cert costs go up next Monday!!!


Dorothy Report 1 Apr 2010 17:20

There is a death on Ancestry Norman Jones born 1905 death 1907 Oldham


martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 18:13

thanks dorothy my norman was born 1915


martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 18:17

hi jan spoken to mum i think you were spot on you jogged her memory rose did move to bolton thanks for that


martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 18:46

hi ann i will be sending for cert it will be after the weekend with easter upon us have just checked normans death cert it says 1915 only thing i cannot work out is death cert gives dob 5-8-1915 ,but birth cert gives dob 15 -9-1915 as i said before name of father & occupation are as they should be by marys death cert


Jooleh Report 1 Apr 2010 20:49

That's a great find Ann. I saw those Leicester births last night & was convinced they were tied in somehow.

My relatives from Ireland are Moughan, variously mistranscribed as Maughan, Monghan, Manghan, Mougham etc so it's not inconceivable that Mary's maiden name was variously mistranscribed as Manning, Manghan & Mangham.

Is it possible that whoever registered the births under Leicester confused her former married name with her maiden name?

The beauty of lancs freebmd is that all the transcribed Oldham births give mother's maiden name. If we put in Jones as the surname with no first name and the years 1898 to 1925 say, it's possible to scroll through the whole list of Jones births and see common maiden names recurring. Not so with this family! 2 Croppers based years apart, 2 Manning's, 1 Lester, 2 Leicester's, 1 Manghan and 1 Mangham all as possibilities. (From memory so figures/spelling may not be accurate)

The Norman death that Dorothy posted could be the first Norman then a later child was given the same name.

I do think the 1911 census posted earlier is the right one.



Jooleh Report 1 Apr 2010 20:54

If May Jones mmn Cropper b 1899 is child of John Edward Jones and Elizabeth Hannah Cropper m 1898 why can't I find them in 1901??? They just don't seem to exist.



martynsue Report 1 Apr 2010 21:29

hi jooleh thanks for your info we could not find john & whoever on the 1911 census so that is why we started on the children in the hope it would lead us in the right direction but i am still as confused as ever with all the surnames just a thought mary was irish so if they are not on the 1911 census maybe they were visiting relations there or is that wishful thinking on my part martyn


lancashireAnn Report 1 Apr 2010 22:06

Julie - I think I saw all of those variations in the baptism register. If I remember rightly (I have not got full notes) I found an Arthur with mmn = Manning. I thought that St Mary's & Our Lady were the only RC churches in Oldham at the time. I have trawled through both and can't find any consistent mmn names for the right children's names.

the marriage of Rose Ann Jones & samuel Hill I posted earlier was 1933 not 1936. It was very hard to read but have now found it on lancs bmd (will edit post to avoid confusion) Mary is Mary Eliz Cheetham & PAK Wright was the priest.When someone has done a translation from the original it is easier to make out what it actually says. & as I found PAK Wright on many entries it seems reasonable to assume he officiated.


Jooleh Report 1 Apr 2010 22:57

That's the problem isn't it - lack of consistency in mmn. But it looks like Ellen Leicester is Martyn's 'Nellie Jones'

I've trawled through John Jones marriages on free bmd from 1895 to 1930 for ANY wife and didn't see any possible match with any of the names on this thread so far except the Cropper one. But why no further children since 1899 to mmn Cropper until Norman in 1915?

Just thinking out loud!

Ok here's a wild theory -Is it possible that E H Cropper was his first wife, they were estranged and he took up with Mary without them actually marrying, then when Norman was born the midwife asked him "what's your wifes name" and he said Elizabeth Cropper. Ha ha not very likely eh?