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help finding family on census

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 5 Apr 2019 15:10

Please answer my questions posted at 10.28

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 5 Apr 2019 16:32

Somewhat later than claimed ??

Marriages Sep 1915 (>99%)
Davies Mary J Williams Bridgend 11a 1753
Williams Robert Davies Bridgend 11a 1753

friendlywelshdragon

friendlywelshdragon Report 5 Apr 2019 16:53

As Annie 's single name was Davies and Mary Jane was Davies I wonder if they were related . Still trying to find Tom or Thomas Jones . he was younger than Rose. only one i can find born 1916 has parents Thomas and Margaret Ann Jones ,so not him , :-S

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 5 Apr 2019 17:05

Any chance of answers to my questions

Someone already suggested that Annie may have been related to Rose's mother

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 5 Apr 2019 17:38

??? [ EDIT: No, not this family - see later posts ]

Mary Jane Davies
in the 1891 Wales Census
Name: Mary Jane Davies
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Thomas Davies
Mother's name: Margaret Davies
Gender: Female
Where born: Maesteg, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil Parish: Glyncorrwg
Ecclesiastical parish: Llangynwyd
Town: Cymmer
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Neath
Sub registration district: Ystradvelltey
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors:
Piece: 4464
Folio: 76
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Davies 36 - Alursyth (?), Monmouthshire [ Aberystruth ]
Margaret Davies 32 - Breconshire, Ystradfilld
Mary Jane Davies 4
Bertram Hook 28 - boarder
James Samson 21 - boarder


Mary

Mary Report 5 Apr 2019 18:37

trees on Ancestry .co.uk have so needs checking.

Mary Jane Davies 19/12/1887 died 20/11/1936 married to Robert Williams with daughter Rose Esther.

Parents of Mary Jane were Charles Davies born London 1830 died 1908 Wales and Johanna Edwards 1857 Wales -1935 Wales.


Maryb.

friendlywelshdragon

friendlywelshdragon Report 5 Apr 2019 19:28

HI Erika .Sorry I took a while to answer I don't know when Annie and William married or where they were born. Have been trying to find a marriage but no luck so far .

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 5 Apr 2019 20:36

Yes, Maryb, that looks more likely:

DAVIES, MARY JANE mms EDWARDS
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in BRIDGEND Volume 11A Page 595


Mary J Davies
in the 1891 Wales Census
Name: Mary J Davies
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Charles Davies
Mother's name: Johanna Davies
Gender: Female
Where born: Maes Teg, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil Parish: Cwmdu
Ecclesiastical parish: Llangynwyd
Town: Maes teg (Maestag)
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Bridgend
Sub registration district: Maesteg
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors:
Piece: 4449
Folio: 93
Page Number: 22
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Davies 61 - coal mner
Johanna Davies 35
Charles D Davies 12
Rose E Davies 10
Jenet A Davies 8
Margaret E Davies 6
Mary J Davies 4
William Davies 2


Charles Davies
in the 1881 Wales Census
Name: Charles Davies
Age: 51
Estimated birth year: abt 1830
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Johanna Davies
Gender: Male
Where born: London White Chappel, London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Cwmdu
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: 5 Powells Row
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: Town Cryer (Munic Off)
Registration district: Bridgend
Sub registration district: Maesteg
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors:
Piece: 5326
Folio: 144
Page Number: 59
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Davies 51
Johanna Davies 26
Charles D. Davies 2
Rose E. Davies - 5 months
William Morgan 49 - lodger
William Jones 39 - lodger
Richard Jones 35 - lodger
Edward Howell 34 - lodger
Ester Edwards 17 - servant



Charles Davies
in the 1901 Wales Census
Name: Charles Davies
Age in 1901: 71
Estimated birth year: abt 1830
Relation: Head
Spouse: Joanna Davies
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Cwmdu
Town: Maesteg
Ecclesiastical parish: Llangynwyd St Cynwyd
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Bridgend
Sub-registration district: Maesteg
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 156
Piece: 5040
Folio: 138
Page Number: 24
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Davies 71
Joanna Davies 46
Margret A Davies 17
Mary E Davies 14
William Davies 12
David Davies 9
James Davies 4

Unfortunately Charles's age and POB make it seem unlikely that he was (say) a brother of Annie E.



Deaths Mar 1908 (>99%)
Davies Charles 78 Bridgend 11a 575

friendlywelshdragon

friendlywelshdragon Report 6 Apr 2019 09:05

Not sure about that date for Mary Jane's death . I remember my late father saying he took my mother to meet her when they were courting . This would have been the late 1940's . Also she may have had a second marriage .

friendlywelshdragon

friendlywelshdragon Report 6 Apr 2019 09:12

Mary : Where did you find the ancestry trees . I have a tree there . I just signed up again for a month but can only find one tree with only two entries on it

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 Apr 2019 10:20

The birth I posted was registered in the first qr of 1887 - which doesn't match the DOB which is Mary's post.

Presumably this is the death the tree owner thinks is the right one:

Mary J Williams
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Mary J Williams
Death Age: 47
Birth Date: abt 1889
Registration Date: Dec 1936
Registration district: Bridgend
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 705

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 Apr 2019 10:48

Dragon -

there are three trees on Ancestry (although one of them refers to another tree which doesn't come up on a search).
Search for Mary Jane Davies with DOB 19/12/1887, as per Mary's post (or 19/02/1887, which is the date given on the trees).

None of them show proof of her DOB, nor of the death in 1936. Much of the content of each of them has been copied from other trees. The only "proof" of anything is the census records, plus birth and marriage index entries from FreeBMD.
The DOB of 19/12/1887 in Mary's post is a mistake, as the trees give her DOB as 19/02/1887, which would at least match the birth in 1st qr 1887.

Hopefully one of the tree owners has looked at the actual birth cert, though none of them have scanned it in to their tree as proof.

Ditto her death.

I wouldn't assume any of the trees are totally trustworthy.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 Apr 2019 11:03

The trees claim that she married in 1905:

Marriages Dec 1905 (>99%)

DAVIES Mary Jane Bridgend 11a 1308
PAGE Norman Bridgend 11a 1308


and the birth of their son:

PAGE, RICHARD CHARLES mms DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in BRIDGEND Volume 11A Page 920

The trees give Norman's middle name as Henry - so presumably someone has looked at the actual marriage cert.

If this marriage is correct, it would explain why Mary and Robert claim to have been "married" for 5 years, but don't actually marry until 1915.

Although -
5 years together would make it 1906, whereas Richard was born 1907.

Following that thought:


Richard Charles Page
in the 1911 Wales Census
Name: Richard Charles Page
Age in 1911: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1908
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Maesteg, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil Parish: Cwmdu
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: 18 Park St Maesteg Glam
Registration district: Bridgend
Registration District Number: 591
Sub-registration district: Maesteg
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 40
Piece: 32538
Household Members:
Name Age
Norman Page 25 - South America,( Richmond resident)
Florence Page 35 - Co Cork
Richard Charles Page 3 - son

Norman and Florence married 6 years - can't see any marriage - may have been in Ireland..

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 8 Apr 2019 11:50

As Rose's name at birth was Davies, and her mother married a Williams - any sibling would have one of those surnames at birth. So, not sure why you are looking for Tom/Thomas JONES

friendlywelshdragon

friendlywelshdragon Report 8 Apr 2019 21:36

Hi Erica . Tom Jones was always known by the family as my Grandmother's brother.and Annie E was always called Granny jones. but I can't find Tom . I know he was a bus driver in Caerau in the 1950s . Don't know if he was a blood brother of my grandmother adopted by the jones's as she was ,or if he was a child of Annie and William . One of the family has said he was a lot younger than my grandmother ,which is why i thought the 1916 birth was a possible match . But I got that birth certificate and the parents were Thomas and Margaret Ann .
one possibility that come to mind is that Granny Jones was actually Great granny and Mary Jane was her daughter , I don't know what the adoption rules would have been at the time but if she was Rose's grandmother would there have been a need for it ?

friendlywelshdragon

friendlywelshdragon Report 8 Apr 2019 22:01

I see you have Mary Janes mother's Maiden name as Edwards so that means my thought is wrong. If Mary Jane did marry twice is it possible to find divorce records . or the death of a first husband
The problem with Tom Jones is the last census is 1911 when he wasn't born ,and may not be on the 1939 census as he died after the cut off date

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 8 Apr 2019 22:53

Legal adoption didn’t start until c1928, so there were no ‘rules’ as such

As Mary married Williams using the name Davies, it is likely that she conveniently ‘forgot ‘ any previous ceremony. IF. there was one,

You can quite easily look yourself for the death of the alleged first husband

friendlywelshdragon

friendlywelshdragon Report 9 Apr 2019 02:26

it is argyllgran who posted the mmn of Edwards and the wedding between Mary Jane and Norman Page. the census records seem to be right but not sure about the wedding .

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 9 Apr 2019 10:46

The only thing that bothers me about the Norman Page scenario is that if he married Mary Jane in 1905, and they had a son in 1907, why is Norman with Florence in 1911, saying that they'd been married for 5 years ie - since 1906?

Unless his marriage to MJ had broken down at the end of 1906, when she was already pregnant with Richard ?? And perhaps he wasn't actually married to Florence ??

It doesn't help that there are so many Mary Jane Davieses.
Maybe this is a different one.
Maybe Florence's ms was Davies.

The Norman Page marriage is what the Ancestry trees claim - no guarantee that it's correct, without seeing the cert.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 9 Apr 2019 11:19

Looks like Norman, a clerk, in 1914:

Norman Page
in the UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
Name: Norman Page
Arrival Age: 28
Birth Date: abt 1886
Port of Departure: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Arrival Date: 14 Oct 1914
Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England
Ports of Voyage: Montevideo; Santos; Rio de Janeiro; Pernambuco; Madeira; Leixoes; Lisbon; Vigo
Ship Name: Araguaya
Shipping Line: Royal Mail Steam Packet Company
Official Number: 120716