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Marriages Sep 1858 (>99%)
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Kay John Wigan 8c 43
Ryding Rachel Wigan 8c 43

Thank you Sablon - That will be the one - It is spelt Riding on Scottish site but it fits !!

Dea Xxx

P.S. - Isn't this exciting !! ???

Dea x

Marriages Mar 1849 (>99%)
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Boylan Mary Wigan 21 566

Hogan Daniel Wigan 21 566


there we go Dea weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
the marriage cert will give fathers name and where from
the birth won't be on bdm as i would think she was born about 1828/1830
But she should be single on 1841 census

Hi Sablon - Just quickly bringing this forward for you from page 10

Re Mary Hogan - she was born in Ireland c 1817 according to 1851 + 1861 Census:

1851 England Census
about Daniel Hogan
Name: Daniel Hogan
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: M
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: Wigan
Ecclesiastical parish: St Catherine
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:............... Army Lane

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Wigan
Sub-registration district: Wigan
ED, institution, or vessel: 1k
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 122
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Hogan 45 Chelsea Pensioner
M Hogan 34
E Hogan 27
M Hogan 10
Mary Boyle 7 step daug - Wigan
John Hogan 5 b Wigan
B Hogan 9 Mo b Wigan




Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2199; Folio: 310; Page: 27; GSU roll: 87208-87209.

.......................

1861 England Census
about Daniel Hagan
Name: Daniel Hagan
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Daniel
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Monk Hesledon, Durham, England

Civil parish: Monk Hesledon
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Street address:................. Castle Eden Colliery


Registration district: Easington
Sub-registration district: Easington
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 238
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Hagan 57 b Ireland Pensioner
Mary Hagan 42 b Ireland
Michael Hagan 20 b Ireland Coal miner
John Hagan 15 b Wigan Coal Miner
Mary Hagan 17 b Wigan
Ann Hagan 9 b Wigan
Thos Hagan 5 b Wigan
Daniel Hagan 1 b Durham (Monk Hesledon)



Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 3751; Folio: 26; Page: 48; GSU roll: 543182.

.............

I had thought she had been married before to a Mr. Boyle/Boylan ??, but it now looks as though this was her maiden name so she would have been unmarried when she has daughter Mary 'Boyle' born in 1844.

Dea x

P.S. - Also on page 10 you will see details for Daniels death (1861?) and Mary's remarriage to Reuben Ingleby in 1866 + details from 1871 Census.

She would therefore have died an 'Ingleby' unless she got married, yet again, which I think is possible.

Dea x

yes ,i think your right Dea.so now Susan should get herself organized ,as her grandfather has been found, Susan can give a shout when she is ready,too much more at this stage might muddle things up.for her.
we have her John kay and his parents and both sets of Grandparents.
what do you think Dea?

Absolutely agree Sablon - everything needed is on here now - we don't want to add any 'new info' now as it will only confuse!

Sue,

Try to do what I suggested the other day and list out all the 'proven' facts leading from yourself and going back to John Kay and then back again to Daniel (John's father) + mother Sarah Ann, then back again to Daniel Snrs. father - another Daniel + mother Mary.

A lot of it is 'pulled together' for you in various posts, especially from page 10 - page 13.

There is an awful lot to 'digest' but everything fits - If you need any further help, or there is anything you are not quite clear on, just come back and ask!!!

Thanks for the 'challenge' ! - I know Sablon and I have enjoyed working together with you on this - Best of luck in searching out the rest of your family!!

Keep in touch,

Dea x

Oh boy big problems with the computer today, don't know how long i'll manage to stay here.!!

Thank you so much i wish i could repay you both in some way. You have both worked so hard .

Can i just ask a few questions Sorry !! I began to lose track. I promise to leave you alone then,

Is John Kay my grandfather John Hogan and is that him definatly on the census showing him born in Wigan ??

I'm going to write it all out and if you don't mind i'll let you see what i've done.

Marriages Mar 1849 (>99%)
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****Boylan Mary Wigan 21 566

****Hogan Daniel Wigan 21 566

this is the start from ireland then mary remarries

Deaths Jun 1861
Hogan Daniel Easington 10a 197
......................................................................

Mary then re-marries (husband no 2 )

Marriages Dec 1866
Hogan Mary Easington 10a 533
INGLEBY Reuben Easington 10a 533

this is Daniel with sarah

HOGAN, DANIEL HEAD MARRIED M 49 COAL MINER HEWER DURHAM CASTLE EDEN HUTTEN HENRY
HOGAN, SARAH ANN WIFE MARRIED 24 F 44 WIGAN PARISH LANCS
HOGAN, JOHN SON SINGLE M 22 COAL MINER HEWER WIGAN PARISH LANCS
HOGAN, DANIEL SON M 5 SCOTLAND HAMILTON RESIDENT
FERRIS, JAMES BOARDER MARRIED M 24 COAL MINER PUTTER BELOW GROUND WINGATE CO DURHAM
FERRIS, HENRIETTA BOARDER MARRIED F 20 WEST HARTLEPOOL DURHAM
FERRIS, SIDNEY JAMES BOARDER M 2 HESLEDEN C/O DURHAM
FERRIS, LEONARD BOARDER M 6 MONTHS WEST HARTLEPOOL DURHAM


you found the marriage in scotland





this marriage is sarahs parents

Marriages Sep 1858 (>99%)
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Kay John Wigan 8c 43
Ryding Rachel Wigan 8c 43



then comes your grand father
John Kay/hogan born out of wedlock

Births Jun 1889
Kay John Wigan 8c 32

this is you first three generations
grandfather
g/grandfather
gg/grandfather on both sides

Hi Sue,

As you can probably tell, I have a real need to PROVE things before I will admit that they are true , and in the case of my own tree, add anyone to it until I am sure.

I have to say that in this case I am 99.9999999% sure that your grandfather John Hogan (registered John Kay), was actually born illigitimately to Sarah Ann Kay who later married Daniel Hogan.

John Kay's birth cert may, or may not name Daniel as father (it may have been left blank), but I feel certain that this John Kay became John Hogan and that this John Kay on 1891 census with his grandparents (Sarah Ann's parents) IS your grandfather.

Again, this is all proved to connect to the 1911 census family - everything fits! - again - this IS your Grandfather John Hogan

All I can say is that if this was 'my' tree and my possible relative, I would be happy to accept him as 'mine', and I don't do that lightly! I have been known to keep several generations on seperate trees for years until I found the 'proof' (even though I 'knew' I was right),and could add them on!! (I'm a stubborn little thing really - (tee hee).

Anyway, take time to look through and have a think - Feel free to ask again if things are not clear!

Dea x

Hi Susan
on the bottom of page 13 i have put the layout to guide you from Daniel and mary
Daniel and Sarah
John Kay Hogan your grandfather

1911 census

HOGAN, DANIEL HEAD MARRIED M 49 COAL MINER HEWER DURHAM CASTLE EDEN HUTTEN HENRY
HOGAN, SARAH ANN WIFE MARRIED 24 F 44 WIGAN PARISH LANCS
HOGAN, JOHN SON SINGLE M 22 COAL MINER HEWER WIGAN PARISH LANCS
HOGAN, DANIEL SON M 5 SCOTLAND HAMILTON RESIDENT
FERRIS, JAMES BOARDER MARRIED M 24 COAL MINER PUTTER BELOW GROUND WINGATE CO DURHAM
FERRIS, HENRIETTA BOARDER MARRIED F 20 WEST HARTLEPOOL DURHAM
FERRIS, SIDNEY JAMES BOARDER M 2 HESLEDEN C/O DURHAM
FERRIS, LEONARD BOARDER M 6 MONTHS WEST HARTLEPOOL DURHAM


i think John Hogan is from a previous marriage
If sarah and Daniel married in 1896 i think Daniel is their son but John is from a Previous marriage.
John married as John Hogan not John kay
or they did not marry in scotland at all ,just had Daniel there.

Well Ladies the final piece of the jigsaw !!!!

John "Hogan's" birth certificate.........

12th March 1889 5 Goldbourne St. Wigan. John. Boy.

Sarah Ann Kay cotton Spinner.

The mark of Sarah Ann Kay Mother, 5 Goldbourne St. Wigan

Reg, 15 th April 1889. Robert Halliwell Registrar

I am afraid this is not yet 'the final piece'

As expected, the father was not named on the cert! - This is to be expected as it was at least a couple of years before she actually 'got together' with Daniel and approx 7 years before she married him!

We now have John's date of birth so we can follow this further.

Do we know approx. when John died?

Don't give up yet!

Dea x

John Hogan's Death Certificate.

Jan 4th 1958. Age 68

at 19 Rydal Ave. Redcar Cleveland.( his daughter's home . Margaret or Paddy as she was always known, my mum's sister )

Formerly a General Labourer.

Chronic Bronchitis Reg Jan 6th 1958

That's strange - I added a message and it has disappeared???

What I said was - drattt ! - I was hoping the death cert would give a date of birth?

Were there no other details on there?

Do you know where he was buried?

Dea x

My last message did not appear either ????

I'm going to look at the deaths index as i'm sure it gives date of birth as well. Back in a mo.

Darn it !!!! no it does not show date of birth, i know much later records do.

From what i have been told John thinks that he was cremated and scattered in a plot with Gertrude but dosen't think the spot is marked. Thats one of the things i want to look for when i go up next weekend.

Sue x

Maybe John might have something which relates to John Snr's birth date - may be old birthday cards, papers, address books which is often where people kept lists of relatives birthdays ??

There may be some reference somewhere to his birthday?

Dea x

I'm sorry,but i still don't think it is John Kay,unless his name was changed legally he would have had to marry under Kay and died by Kay.
If you can find any records of cremation ,it may say when he was born.Even though the grave is not marked the cremitorium should have info.
my g/grandfather was a Robinson born out of wedlock his parents married 6 months after the birth,but he was reg as Wraight,his mothers name, Married by wraight and Died By wraight but his birth cert named the father Robinson and that was in 1878.He could have married under Robinson as both names were on the cert.
the 1911 census above says 24 yrs F 44 yrs ,i think they were married 24 years ago.Right census wrong marriage.Maybe they had Daniel in scotland for some reason Boyle sounds scottish to me.Visiting family maybe.

Surname Given Name District Volume Page Transcriber

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Births Dec 1867
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Wilkinson Sarah Ann Wigan 8c 74


this is the marriage i found before

Marriages Sep 1888 (>99%)
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Hogan Daniel Durham 10a 518
WILKINSON Sarah Durham 10a 518

this would make them married the right length in time 24 years
but look what i found now ,same theary but with wilkinson

Births Sep 1888 (>99%)
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WILKINSON John Wigan 8c 108


too scarey ,but same reg as census and close to marriage
john born wigan
sarah born wigan
daniel born Durham
marriage Durham