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Hi Derek
Just a quick one on Joseph Cockayne.
1851 census gives birth place as Ilkeston.
1861 as Denby. (This may be Derby of cause)

Hi Derek I have just been given your Thread to ask you about a marriage.Joseph Spooner birth about 1806, Brampton Derbyshire and Ann Lonsdale birth about 1807, Sheffield. They can be found in the 1841 census with one son William. I can find no trace of their marriage and they are my g g grandparents. Any help would be most gratefull.
John

Hello John..this is a brute!..I've seen the various entries on the Census returns.and am mystified.

I would suggest that if Ann Lonsdale was born in Sheffield then she is more than likely to have been married there. Most often marriages took place in the bride's Parish...........and i don't have any records for Sheffield.

However i do have records for both Old brampton and New Brampton

Joseph Spooner was baptised in Brampton 07.03.1813 son of James and mary Spooner.................

There is a baptism at Brampton of Harriet 03.09.1843 daughter of Joseph and Ann

The various census entries are confusing.....becasue they give conflicting information.

I'll persevere with this and get back to you

Derek

Creeky.......Hello Roger........I don't know how accurate your information is..or the Sources from which you got it...........but working purely from genuine Parish records..........we have a problem!!

I have the ilkeston St.Mary Records Baptisms 1588-1901..Marriages 1588-1841.and Burials 1588-1841

There is no mention of any Cockaynes prior to the marriage of Joseph to Ruth Musson..ergo the Cockaynes did not originate in Ilkeston

The first Mussons in ilkeston arrived about 1704......and there were two families.of which one is yours but not until the 1770's..prior to that they were in Eastwood Nottinghamshire..very close to Ilkeston .but just across the border.

I tend to do this in bits, so as to give you time to assimilate the information and maximise your anticipation for more!!lolol

You asked initially for th3 parentage of RUTH MUSSON..here we go..

Ruth was the youngest of Nine children of JAMES MUSSON and ELIZABETH nee FISHER married at Eastwood notts 23.11.1772

Their children were:-

ANN 09.06.1775
BETTY 1611.1776
DOLLY 11.07.1778
JAMES 21.11.1779
JOHN 05.06.1781
MARY 05.08.1782 buried 15.01.1783
George09.05.1784
THOMAS 18.01.1790
and RUTH MUSSON baptised 22.05.1791..all at ilkeston St.Marys


RUTH MUSSON married JOSEPH COCKAYNE at St>Mary's Ilkeston 26.12.1807....and this is where we get into trouble...........I have the St.Mary Baptisms right through to 1901..and the ONLY child of Joseph and Ruth.is

HARRIETbaptised 04.03.1810...........

I have looked at IGI and at the Census returns.......and the next child of Joseph and Ruth is 20 years later?????????

I don't believe it.............sorry.

I love this sort of challenge and willl look into it further.

Derek.

Hello Derek
Ref the Musson trouble.

Yes I am trying to take it all in!
Don't tell me I've got it wrong after all these years.
If it helps this is outline of what I have.........................

Joseph Cockayne & Ruth Musson m. 26th. Dec. 1807 Ilkeston

(IGI) Martha Cockayne
Female
Birth: 29 FEB 1808 Derbys. Derby.
Parents:
Father: Joseph Cockayne
Mother: Ruth Musson

(IGI) HARRIET COCKAYNE
Female
Birth:
Christening: 04 MAR 1810 Ilkeston, Derbys.
Parents:
Father: JOSEPH COCKAYNE
Mother: RUTH

(IGI) (also on 1841 census) William Cockayne
Birth: About 1819 Ilkeston, Derbys.
Parents:
Father: Joseph Cockayne
Mother: Ruth Musson

(IGI) Sarah Cockayne
Birth: About 1821 Ilkeston, Derbys.
Burial: 31 MAR 1889 Cotmanhay, Derbys.
Parents:
Father: Joseph Cockayne
Mother: Ruth Musson

(From 1841 Census not on IGI)
Hannah Cockayne b.c.1828 Ilkeston
*(My 2nd great grandmother) *
She married Henry Richards in 1847 at Nuthall Church
Residence stated as Awsworth (Father Joseph FWK)

(From 1841 & 51 Census not on IGI)
Joseph Cockayne b.c.1822 Ilkeston

Waiting to be pulled apart!

Hello Roger..no intention of pulling you apart...nothing you have said in any way refutesw my findings..the only ilkeston baptism in the St.Mary Parish records is Harriet 04.08.1810............nothing after that......which does not knock out any baptisms in places close ot Ilkeston...and of course the Census records support what you say.......

I am giving you the info straight fromn the St.Mary;s Parish records......what's missing may be a gap in the Records......

Anyway, you asked for the ancestors of Ruth Musson.......

JAMES MUSSON married ELIZABETHG FISHER 23.11.1772 at Eastwood Notts.
He was the son of EDWARD MUSSON born Eastwood 13.12.1717 baptised 26.12.1717.........and DOROTHY JACKSON.....Edward was the son of Daniel and Ruth Musson.....and tha's as far as i have got.....at this time of night and after a couple of rather nice Malt Whiskey's!!
Joseph Cockayne was definitely NOT from ilkeston..unles there was another obscure church..which i very much doubt...since i am at this moment less than 15 minutes drive away from that very same church!..and know the area very well//

will resume this, with a clear head..tomorrow!!

Derek

Hello Derek, Yes Elizabeths maiden name was Draper and I think her father was Robert. She married my Grt grandfather Richard Aston I think in Manchester about 1873. Regards Eileen.

Hi Roger.......something is wrong here..because Harriet Cockayne is the only child of Joseph and Ruth can i can find.

I notice that your list of children for Joseph and Ruth only includes one actual baptism date..that for Harriet..all the others are "about"......and none of them appear in the Ilkeston registers......

which led me to think, were Joseph and Ruth..Non-conformists..or Catholics........clealry not becasue we have one child baptised at St.Mary's..and they were married at St. mary's..why would they change religion???

There are no Cockayne's at ilkeston before the marriage of joseph and Ruth..and the first Cockayne birth is that of harriet

I also thought they might have moved away..but again..no because they are on the census in ilkeston.

Another thought....I don't know about Martha 1808..but I accept it.and of course Harriet is confirmed....so why the 20 year gap before they have any more children???. Frankly i don't believe it..and the IGI entries for William Sarah and hannah..are submitted entries, and not acceptable.......There has to be an explanation..I'm going back to the censuses!!

Eileen........."Elizabeth Aston (was Draper) born Aston on Trent 1884"

"Elizabeth Aston nee Draper married Richard Aston.Manchester 1873"

thisis the gist of your two messages to me.......see my problem????

Derek.

Hey Derek
It must be my family, we had the same problem when you tried to help me with Ben & William Tatham of Ilkeston. You even took the trouble to look into the records at Matlock. I have Benjamin b.1801 Ilkeson son of William, but could we find him .... No! ...I am still looking (however I do know they had a Methodist links).
Anyway back to this one, another fact that bothers me is why daughter Hannah Cockayne gives Awsworth as her abode when married in Nuthall on Oct 18th. 1847 (Joseph was alive and her father, I have cert.) but in 1851 & 61 he lives in Ilkeston. I know they are close, but agree with you, things just don't add up.

Sorry to be such a pest.

Let me know if you want to throw the towel in, I'm going to have a beer, you have a whisky on me!

Roger

Excuse me.
Anyone seen Meercat, please?

Hi Derek
Thanks for the info. If James and Mary are the parents of Joseph that is somthing I did not know. Josephs wife Ann in the 1841/51 census died in 1856, Joseph remarried in 1858, another Ann who had 2 sons.
Any tips on trying to find Ann in Sheffield.
Thanks John

Information for Derek & John

Marriage Parish Church of St. Peter (now the Cathedral Church) Sheffield 1836

Joseph Spooner to Ann Lonsdale.

Source of information Sheffield FHS Marriage transcriptions, sorry cannot pinpoint exact date ,only year.

Joseph's 2nd wife Ann (Hopkinson) Maskrey actually had 3 sons, the eldest Solomon born 1848 died 1857, so doesn't show in the 1861 census household.

Hope this helps

Edit Solomon died 1856

Hi kathleen..thanks for that..gets me off the hook...and i suspected it was Maskery rather than Maskey.

Derek

Hi Derek

I have looked for this marriage before and posted it.

It's on the CD section October 1835 to end of July 1836, page 18 of 24 pages, so think the marriage was somewhere around Easter onwards.

Suspect it may have been on your thread that was whooshed.
Not sure if it was John who lost out on the info though.

Meercat has been found :-)

Hello Derek

Do you have the Coton in Elms CD Rom? If so, could you please check for a burial of a Joseph Hines (Hinds) in 1846 or 1847.

Thanks very much
Carol

Hi Derek

More info which may help John in his search.

Baptism in Parish Church of St. Peter & St. Paul Sheffield

15th June 1806 Ann daughter of William & Hannah Lonsdale.
William's occupation, Cutler

Ann was born 26th May 1806, which makes her 30 when she married Joseph Spooner, age on her death certificate may confirm if this is the correct Ann.

And also in the same church in 1802, this marriage

William Lonsdale to Hannah Mason

Hello Carol..you're not going to believe this.......I have the Burial Records for Coton-in-the-Elms..but they don'y start till October 1846..and he's not there..so we're very unlucky if he buried early 1846.
I'm investigating WHY the burials only start then..perhaps all burials pre October 1846 were elsewhere.
Will let you know.

Derek.

Hi Derek

Thanks for looking for me

Carol