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Well the only marriage that fits with the fact that John Wilson had a pair of married parents is the one that Janey has found. No guarantees she is right, but at least enquiring about that ceritificate from West Derby would be a starting point.

I have sent Boogie a PM to try to convince him that it is worth coming back to his thread. So far no response. Perhaps somebody less abrupt than me can have a try.

Margaret

Sorry guys if i have come across a little "agressive".

I have had a low white blood cell count for the past 2 weeks and I'm run down and rather tied and depressed. I have become so very tetchy and flare up for no real reason since getting inflamorty arthritis 3 years ago.

I find it hard to concentrate on anything for to long. Let me look over what has been said and I'll post again!.

I have to go out this afternoon for my physio...so it I dont reply from about 12.30 you know why.

Oh.. and my typing does suffer,,hence any mistakes...my hands are not what they used to be.

Cheers!

Ok....I have run a eye over the other posts.

Thanks all for taking the time to look things up. It is much appreciated.

I have to say..I am now not really convinced that I have things right.

Ok....lets see what I do know.

John Wilson married Emma Tuck in 1892.

These are my great grandparents..these are the folks mentioned on my grandfathers birth cert.

Married 23rd April 1892.
John is said to be 30 years old...and Emma 28.

Johns father is a William Wilson..Occupation Shipwright.

John himself has occupation of Carpenters mate aboard HMS Active.
Married in the Parish Church Portsea, Portsmouth, Hampshire, England.

John & Emma are my great grandparents..this is for sure.

Ok...I also have a birth cert for who I believe to the correct John Wilson.....BUT..is it?......
These are the details

John Wilson...born Portsea, Portsmouth, 18th October 1862. 4 Unicorn Street (I believe this was inside the dockyard)

Father is a William Wilson..mother Agnes Wilson formerly McCaskie.
Occupation of father "sapper Royal Enginners"

Birth registered 1st or 8th ( cant make it out) Jan 1863.

So..is this the right John Wilson?

If so...where is William & Agnes family...and where are they from?.
Or..have I got it wrong?.

Its the military background which I'm finding hard to get past..I haven't been able to find any corrisponding families in the census records.

Have I got the right Johns birth...?

Cheers!

Nice to have you back Boogie!

Yes, I think you have the wrong birth cert. This looks like your John Wilson in 1891:

1891 England Census
about John Wilson
Name: John Wilson
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Member of Crew (Member)
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Royal Navy
Town: Spithead
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England
Occupation: Carpenter's mate
Registration district: Portsea Island
Sub-registration district: Portsmouth Town
ED, institution, or vessel: Active

The same man in 1881? - father William is also a shipwright:

1881 England Census
about John Wilson
Name: John Wilson
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Esther
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool

Civil parish: Toxteth Park
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address: 7 Ho 9 CT Mann St
Occupation: Shipwright

Registration district: Toxteth Park
Sub-registration district: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Wilson 49
Esther Wilson 47
John Wilson 22
David Wilson 17
Eliza Wilson 13
Frances Wilson 9
Wm. Wilson 6

Will try to find him on earlier censuses.

1871:
1871 England Census
about John Wilson
Name: John Wilson
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Esther
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Toxteth Park
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mathew
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Household schedule number: 41
Household Members: Name Age
William Wilson 39
Esther Wilson 37
John Wilson 11
David Wilson 5
Eliza Wilson 3
George Walkington 63 - brother-in-law

That's the one I had been following Potty but I can't trace William,s marriage to Esther?

Dea x

No sure if this is any help.

Brother-in-law George in 1851?

Name: George Walkington
Age: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1808
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Alice
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool

Civil parish: Liverpool
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Thomas
ED, institution, or vessel: 1o
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 157
Household Members: Name Age
George Walkington 43
Alice Walkington 27
George Walkington 11
Ann Walkington 9

All born in Liverpool

So by the age of his wife and children possibly a second marriage?

Possible marriage for George and Alice??

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1851 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forbes Alice Liverpool 20 314
Walkington GEORGE LIVERPOOL 20 314



Then looked for a Wilson / Forbes marriage just in case Alice was Esther's sister - nothing!!

Neither can I Dea. I wondered if John was from a previous marriage - there is 5 years between him and the next child.

I can find the William Mary found - unmarried shipwright with a father William also a shipwright and mother Charlotte, but no sign of John.

Without anyone shouting at me for interfering,specially Boogie ;)

Have you been able to locate your grandfather ,son of Emma and John on the 1911 census?
Just wondered ,as it may have him with his dad and maybe his dad will have given his birth place,other than just a county.
But I guess he may have been at sea anyway
viv

Potty they are Williams not Wilson.

I'm a bit concerned we are making yet more assumptions because they seem to fit better than Boogie's original ones.

Okay, the John marrying on 23 April 1892 seems to be the one aboard HMS Active in 1891, albeit having a slightly different age. A carpenter's mate. Born Liverpool. Father William, shipwright.

So in 1881 we find a William who is a shipwright with a son John. This John is 22 (born 1858/9), the one in 1891 is born 1859/60, while the one married is born 1861/62. We all know how ages can vary, but there's a potential difference of 4 years between the John in 1881 and the married John. I'm also a bit concerned that on the 1881 census John is a shipwright - my knowledge is limited, but surely that is a much better job than a Carpenter's Mate, and quite different I would think.

EDIT Well, no-one picked me up on it so I continued in blissful ignorance - but a Carpenter is another term for a Shipwright!

The thing is there are other John Wilsons in 1881 who could fit, e.g. one is a Trimmer in Liverpool, aboard SS City of Brussels. I think a Trimmer stokes the boilers, so he could have progressed upwards to a Carpenter's mate. Though he is possible the fella who becomes a ship's painter in 1891.

Viv, I haven't yet found John in 1901 - can find Emma, John 7, Dorothy 5 and Christina 1, against Emma it says "Husband on HMS Wye".

Haven't tried 1911 yet.

Emma is a widow in 1911.

Deadend there then..

I was just checking the National Archives and came up with these two:

Name Wilson, John
Official Number: K26670
Place of Birth: Liverpool, Lancashire
15 October 1896 ADM 188/920
Name Wilson, John
Official Number: K26990
Place of Birth: Liverpool, Lancashire
03 December 1895 ADM 188/920

I then wondered if these were the two that Potty had found, but that post has gone. So they might be or not.

I can't discover what the date refers to.

EDIT I am sure these were what Potty posted.

Marriages Sep 1853 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AINSWORTH Robert Liverpool 8b 442
MOORE Esther Liverpool 8b 442
WILCOCK Ellen Liverpool 8b 442
WILSON William Liverpool 8b 442

EDIT - if we are running with the John/William shipwrights, just realised that the William b 1832, shipwright is still with his parents William and ~Charlotte in 1861 so the marriage above can't be of that William. So where is the above William and Esther in 1861 (perhaps with our John)?

EDIT AGAIN - Robert Ainsworth appears to marry Ellen.

Looked at the Walkington lot. George in 1871 is a lot older than either William or Esther, wondered if he were really the father in law. Can't find him at all in 1861, but 1851 has already been found married to Alice Forbes, children George 11 and Ann 9. I wondered if Alice might also have been married before, age 27 on marriage to George.

Possible marriage of George in 1838 to Mary Thompson. In 1841 there is Mary 25 and George Walkington, 1, look like lodgers with yet another family. No sign of George the dad. Death of Mary in June 1849, West Derby.

And I guess all I've got to say is: fine, I found the parents of the *other* John Wilson. Since Boogie thought that was the right John Wilson, I'll shift the blame there. ;)

For what it is worth, the Scottish marriage for William + Agnes which Janey found looks good if boogie DOES have the correct birth cert for 'his' John ?

Dea x

Yes, the Scottish marriage is the best if we are still running with Agnes as the mother. But that is breaking the golden rule of starting with what you know and working back. So far we only know for certain that John was a carpenter's mate and his father was William, a shipwright. We have no firm evidence of where he was born cos he is not on the 1891 census with his wife after his marriage, and by 1911 he is dead.

Likely death in Dec 1908:

WILSON John 46 Portsmouth 2b 251

Finding John on the 1901 census would be the single greatest piece of information at this stage - but I can't find him. I have looked through the findmypast census and checked all "Vessels" for a carpenter or a Scouser, but they are all (there are only about six) in completely different jobs and from unrelated areas of the country. I also checked institutions, though perhaps not every one. Will look again. We cannot really move on without knowing where the John Wilson who married Emma Tuck was born.

We have found a John who fits the bill re his occupation and location in 1891, compared with his marriage in 1892, though not quite right with the date of birth - but he might have lied about that to get into the RN. This John is born Liverpool, and that would seem to be correct as the crew members listed with him are not from Liverpool, so it isn't likely to be just a case of dittos being wrong. But we are still guessing.

BTW my John Davies first appears in 1881 living at Wilson's Terrace!