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Thomas Kelly.b.c1843.,Llangollen.,Denbighshire.,

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

mgnv

mgnv Report 2 Jun 2013 23:55

Elaine - I presumed you were following the advice given in 2 seperate posts on page 1 of this thread that you use
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
I've used this site in several posts, and presumed you were now familiar with the headers, which I omitted above, just saying:

1896q4 KELLY Samuel Wigan Wigan & Leigh KELLY WIG/203/400
[I appended the quarter of registration from FreeBMD]

The full post (with headers added) is:

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1896
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
KELLY Samuel Wigan Wigan & Leigh KELLY WIG/203/400

Short of buying the certs, usually the only place you'll find the mum's maiden surname on b.certs pre 1911q3, age at death on d.certs pre-1866, and who wed whom on m.certs at any date (from 1912 on, spousal surname is given, but this won't settle cases of double marrs of 2 brothers to 2 sisters, etc), is the local indexes, e.g. LancsBMD, where that info MAY appear.
There's a collection of links to such indexes at:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd

=============================================================

I can't say for certain they're not with Richard his census to me seems quite muddled, possibly the enumerator got confused in transcribing his notes as I don't think many in that h/h could read or write, at least not very well, as most sign their m.certs with an X.

Here's Richard's 1901:
1901 England Census Transcription
Street:59 WARRINGTON ROAD
Parish:INCE IN MAKERFIELD
Town:INCE IN MAKERFIELD
City:
County:Lancashire
Country:ENGLAND
Ecclesiastical District:ST MARYS
Municipal Ward:CENTRAL
Parliamentary Borough:INCE SOUTH WESTERN
Registration District:WIGAN
Registration Sub-District: Hindley
Enumeration District:30
Archive Reference:RG13 Piece Number:3563 Folio:193 Page:32 --> Folio:194 Page:33

ANDREW COOPER 1843 58 Wigan, Lancs HEAD M Coal Miner Hewer
ANN COOPER 1854 47 Wigan, Lancs WIFE M
RICHARD COOPER 1871 30 Wigan, Lancs SON S Coal Miner Hewer
JAMES COOPER 1873 28 Wigan, Lancs SON M Coal Miner Hewer
MARGARET COOPER 1878 23 Wigan, Lancs DAUGHTER S Pit Brow Woman
-----------
ELLEN COOPER 1884 17 Wigan, Lancs DAUGHTER S
MARGARET E COOPER 1887 14 Wigan, Lancs DAUGHTER
ESTHER E COOPER 1889 12 Wigan, Lancs DAUGHTER
MARGARET A COOPER 1901 0[4m] Wigan, Lancs GRAND DAUGHTER

So what's wrong with this - Andrew's younger by 2 y than 1891, and Ann by 1 y.
Richard is Married, Margaret is 19 not 23.
It's the second page that really bothers me.
The only Margaret E that I can find is James's daur, a=4 - I can't find a death for her, but it's odd he should name another daur Margt Ann (a=4m - the granddaur on the census).
I think the middle daur Mary Alice died in Atherton.
Esther E is 27, not 12 - she's also Married (to Jas):

Marriage: 10 Aug 1895 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancs.
James Cooper - (X), 23 Collier Bachelor of 11 Birkett Bank
Esther Elizabeth Pearson - 22 Spinster of 11 Birkett Bank
Groom's Father: Andrew Cooper, Collier
Bride's Father: Thomas Pearson, (deceased), Collier
Witness: Richard Cooper, (X); Elizabeth Cooper, (X)
Married by Banns by: F. W. Boumphrey Curate
Register: Marriages 1891 - 1898, Page 153, Entry 305
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives


Most of the h/h sign their names with an X on their m.certs, so the hypothesized muddle would be down to the enumerator stuffing up.

Elaine

Elaine Report 3 Jun 2013 01:22

Curiouser and curiouser! The enumerator seems to have stuffed up,good and proper,eh?

I can use Lancs OPC very well,but find Lancs BMD very difficult...I can never put above a few dates in at once,cos I don't know how to illuminate a bigger number!
Will take another look at it though,and see can I master it!

Was thinking,the Samuel and John William,living 53,Broom St when they died,in 1898/00....could they have maybe,been the children of Frances(Fanny)MARIA Kelly?
Thomas Kelly,and wife Maria lived at that address in 1901 census,together with dau.Elizabeth 24.,son Richard 21 and dau Rosina 8.
Thnx once agin for all the help.
Elaine

mgnv

mgnv Report 3 Jun 2013 07:09

It works like lots of PC things - to look from 1871-1921, say, click on 1871, then go to 1921, hold the shift key down and click on it. To get just 1871 & 1921, click on 1871, then go to 1921, hold the ctrl key down, and click on it. The latter is more useful on FreeBMD when I just want Cheshire & Lancs, or Wigan & Leigh, say.
It's up to the page designer what behaviours are allowed - e.g., Ancestry doesn't allow multiple counties - their lists work more like radio buttons - press one and it undoes everything else previously on the list.

I don't think they were Frances's kids - in 1911 she said only 1 (i.e., Maria) had died - the census shows 4 live kids within the marr, and Margt as the 5th living kid - I know the question is supposed to reflect kids within the marr, but it was commonly answered incorrectly (see your Mary Ann). Another common error is for widows to say how long the current marr has lasted, when clearly they're no longer married - these answers are usually crossed out by the enumerator, as here. If Sam were Frances's, I'ld expect him to be buried with his step-father's name, not Kelly. Margt is using her stepfather's name on the censuses - and your Ellen wed under her step-father's name.

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1897[q3]
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
KELLY Francis Maria JOHNSON James Christ Church, Ince Wigan & Leigh C19/5/356

Although it says James (as does FreeBMD), it seems he also went by William.

1901 Archive Reference:RG13 Piece Number:3565 Folio:47 Page:5

1911 Census Reference:RG14PN23052 RG78PN1346 RD458 SD4 ED37 SN112
[marr 14 y; 6 live births; 5 still living; all crossed out, 1901/11 addy=Tolketh St]


1898q1 JOHNSON William Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/130/485 [GRO page=99]
1900q4 JOHNSON Hannah Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/141/370
1903q4 JOHNSON Henry Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/154/16
1906q4 JOHNSON Mary Ann Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/164/352
1909q4 JOHNSON Maria Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/175/188
1911q4 JOHNSON Nora Hindley Wigan & Leigh KELLY HNDL/182/283

http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/incecemetery.php?opt=incecemetery
Johnson Maria 8 mo Tolketh St. 21-May 1910 dau of William B 398* C of E

Elaine

Elaine Report 3 Jun 2013 11:48

Oh..never thought of that! (taking stepfathers name).
I was messing about last night,put Kelly marriages in,on Lancs OPC..no Christian name,no date..nothing but the surname.
Under St Catherine's,I found a marriage for a John William Kelly,in 1899.He was a 59yr old widower,living 47,Leader St.
He married a 50yr old widow,called Mary Ann Pearson,also living 47,Leader St.
Grooms father..John William Kelly.deceased.,Shoemaker
Brides father...William Bolton.deceased.,Mill overlooker
Witnesses William Jones & Sarah Jones

The name caught my eye,especially with the fathers occupation...Thomas Kelly's father was a shoemaker,too.

I looked for him in censuses...1901 census,I found..47,Leader St.,
Head.,John William Kelly.61,coal Hewer.,b Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceirog.,Denbighshire
Wife.,Mary Ann Kelly.,52.,b Wigan
Son.,Edward Pearson.,15.,b Wigan.apprentice spade,tool,maker
Dau.,Sarah Pearson.,12.,b Wigan
Boarder.,Alfred Wowdale.,52.,coal Hewer.,b Bristol

1911 census..47,Leader St
Head.,John William Kelly.,72.,pensioner.,b Llan.Dyffryn Ceirog
Wife.,Mary Ann Kelly.,62
Sister.,Sarah Jane Harris.,58(on here,I think it says b Wigan,but I think it's been transcribed wrong...Sarah Jane Kelly was b 1853,Wrexham.,Denbs)

Looked further back and in 1871 census..Broughton.,Wrexham(were 3 of Thomas' children were born,in 1872/74/76)
Head.,John William Kelly.,32.,b Llanarmon.,Denbighshire
Wife.,Elixabeth Kelly.,34.,b Mold.,Flint
Dau.,Margaret Kelly.,14.,b Wrexham
Son.,John Kelly.,11.,b Broughton.,Denbs
Son.,Richard.,5.,b Broughton.,Denbs
Dau.,Sara E Kelly.,3.,b Broughton.,Denbs

Am now going to look for a marriage for John William & Elizabeth.

Found a marriage for a Mary Ann Bolton(JWs second wife)
22nd Aug 1868.,St.Philip.,Salford.,Lancs
Edward Pearson.,27.Private 68th Regiment.,Salford Barracks
TO Mary Ann Bolton.,20.Spinster.,West Wellington St
Grooms father..Thomas Pearson.,spinner
Brides father...William Bolton.,Tackler
Witnesses...J Walker & Elizabeth Ahem

Burial.,7th Jul 1896.,Edward Pearson.aged 55.,54,Leader St. Wigan
Cemetery.,Lower Ince

Found births for children of a Mary Ann and Edward Pearson...He must have left Army,will have to try and find his records for date.
Bapt 22nd Jul 1877,Mary Jane Pearson
Bapt 3rd Aug 1879,Charles Pearson
Bapt 5th Feb 1882,Ann Pearson
Bapt 4th Jun 1888,Edward Pearson
Bapt 4th Jun 1888,Sarah Pearson
Last two living with John William & Mary Ann in 1901 census..not twins,Edward b 2yrs earlier

Re the Cooper births you gave me M....wonder if the Mgt Ellen b 1896.,Mary Alice b 1897 and Mgt Ann b 1901 mmn Pearson,have any connection with Mary Ann Pearson?
Elaine




Need to do a bit more checking,but could Thomas Kelly.,b c1847.,John William Kelly.,b c1840 and Sarah Jane Kelly.,b c1853,be siblings?
Will try and see if there more births in between those.

Elaine

Elaine Report 6 Jun 2013 12:52

Have been looking on Censuses for Thomas Kelly,my gt gt grandad,b Llangollen.,Wrexham.,Wales c1847.
Have possible siblings for him(see post above)...John William,b.c1840.,in Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceirog,which was part of Wrexham....... and Sarah Jane,b.c1853 in Wrexham.
John William and Sarah Jane ARE down as siblings in 1911 Census,living 47,Leader St.,Wigan.,Lancs.
On John Williams' marriage details(2nd marriage,to Mary Ann Pearson,nee Bolton,widow) in 1899,his father is down as John William Kelly.,deceased.,shoemaker.
Thomas' father was also a shoemaker called John(not sure if its just John or if its John William...the lady who has the cert,has mislaid it)
As all three births were Wrexham,I looked on Wales censuses,as well as the England Census....
In 1841,there should be John William snr,his wife,and son John William
In 1851,there also should be Thomas living with them
In 1861,there should be also Sarah Jane with them.
(there may also be more children,but I haven't found them)
Have tried Censuses on several sites,but can't find them anywhere.
Could someone please take a look for me?
Please...
Elaine. :-S

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Jun 2013 10:22

Please bump me up...thankyou.x

Elaine

Elaine Report 30 Jun 2013 17:22

bump bump!!

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 30 Jun 2013 22:48

This might be John William Jr in 1891. At least, this one's a widower and a coal miner. No birthplace recorded.


1891 England Census about John Kelly
Name: John Kelly
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male

Civil Parish: Wigan
Ecclesiastical parish: St Catherine
Town: Wigan
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration District: Wigan
Sub-registration District: Wigan
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3052
Folio: 22
Page Number: 38
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Langton 40
Mary Langton 39
Lucy Langton 22
John Kelly 52
William Leadingham 39

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 30 Jun 2013 22:53


1881 Wales Census about John Kelly
Name: John Kelly
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizth. Kelly
Gender: Male
Where born: Llarmon, Denbighshire, Wales

Civil Parish: Broughton
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales

Street Address: Butchers Field
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education: View Image
Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Coal Miner

Registration District: Wrexham
Sub-registration District: Ruabon
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 5516
Folio: 74
Page Number: 38
Household Members:
Name Age
John Kelly 42
Elizth. Kelly 44
Richard Kelly 15
Mary Ann Kelly 9
Elizabeth Evans 4

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 30 Jun 2013 22:56


1861 Wales Census about John Wm Kelley
Name: John Wm Kelley
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Kelley
Gender: Male
Where born: Llanarmonfriney, Denbighshire, Wales

Civil Parish or Township: Broughton
Ecclesiastical parish: Brymbo
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales

Street Address: View Image
Condition as to marriage: View Image
Education: View Image
Employment status: View Image
Occupation: View Image

Registration District: Wrexham
Sub-registration District: Wrexham
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household Schedule Number: 161
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4286
Folio: 18
Page Number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
John Wm Kelley 22
Elizabeth Kelley 24
John Kelley 1

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 30 Jun 2013 22:59

Marriages Jun 1859 (>99%)
Evans Elizabeth Wrexham 11b 637
Hannaby Thomas Wrexham 11b 637
Kelly John William Wrexham 11b 637
Stockton Elizabeth Wrexham 11b 637

JemimaFawr

JemimaFawr Report 30 Jun 2013 23:37

I have found an 1881 Census which may be the family that you are looking for Elaine-

4 Canal Street, Ince in Makesfield (Wigan district)

Head- Thomas Kelly 48 (b.c.1843) Coal Miner born Llangollen Wales
Wife- Maria 43 (b.c.1848) born Manchester
Son- Thomas Edward Kelly 22 (b.c.1869) Miner born Preston, Lancs
Daughter- MARYANN KELLY 20 (B.C.1871) Cotton Mill Hand born WHITEHAVEN, LANCASHIRE
Son- Francis M 17 (b.c.1874) Cotton Mill Hand born Wales
Daughter- Mary Elizabeth 14 (b.c.1877) "
Son- Richard 12 (b.c.1879) "
Daughter- Grace 6 (b.c.1885) born Lancs
Boarder- James Bond! 38 (b.c.1853) born Derbyshire

Hope this helps. I have never posted anywhere before!!!!!!

Elaine

Elaine Report 1 Jul 2013 01:27

Argyllgran....I have the John William,widower too.Thankyou.
There was a marriage 20th May 1899,St Catherine.,Wigan.
John William Kelly.59,collier,widower,47,Leader St
TO Mary Ann Pearson,50,widow,47,Leader St
Grooms father.,John William Kelly,deceased,shoemaker
Brides father.,William Bolton.,deceased mill overlooked
Witnesses.,William Jones & Sarah Jones

Found Mary Ann's first marriage too....
22nd Aug 1868.,St Philip.,Salford
Edward Pearson,27,Private 68th Reg.,bachelor,Salford Barracks
TO Mary Ann Bolton,20,spinster,West Wellington St


Grooms father.,Thomas Pearson,spinner
Brides father.,William Bolton,tackler
Witnesses.,J Walker & Elizabeth Ahem

BURIAL....Edward Pearson,55, of 54,Leader St.,buried Wigan Cemetery,Lower Ince.,CofE.,7th Jul 1896.

Have still to find John Williams first marriage.

I think this John William,is the possible brother of Thomas,b1847,Denbighshire.
There's a lady tracing same family(her relative is John William b 1873,brother of my Mary Anne Kelly.
She sent for marriage cert for Thomas Kelly and Maria Johnson...grooms father down as John Kelly,shoemaker....could this be the deceased shoemaker at John Williams marriage to Mary Ann Pearson(above)?

Maria Johnson d1909,and in 1911 Census,Thomas is living in Ammanford.,Carmarthenshire,with son John William,dau in law Emma(nee Neary)and family.
He died 1917

EDIT...as you pointed out a/gran...John William b c1839,was married to either Elizabeth Stockton(my maiden name)or Elizabeth Evans(my late mums maiden name)
Don't know HOW to find out which!

I have that Ruth,but thnx anyway..good of you to look. Was this 1891 census tho,not 1881? You did just fine.
4,Canal St is on the Baptism details for my gran,who was born in 1893,2yrs after census,to single woman,Mary Ann Kelly.

Mary Ann wed Richard Cooper in 1898....in 1901 census,he was with his parents in Warrington Rd,same address as on his daus bapt details in Jul that year.
Still can't find Mary Ann.,Ellen Jane(Nellie/Jane Ellen)or 1yr old Elizabethann,in 1901 census,OR John William b.c1872!

Been up against this brick wall for a good while now,and no further on! :-) :-)

Elaine

Elaine Report 8 Jul 2013 20:47

please bump me up!

Elaine

Elaine Report 18 Aug 2013 02:49

Have now found a possible marriage for Thomas Kelly's parents,John and Elizabeth( nee Edwards)married Wrexham.St Giles in 1838

1861 WALES CENSUS..........Sutton.
Head.,John Kelly,50,master shoemaker,b Cork,Ireland
Wife.,Elizabeth,60,b Ellesmere,Shrops
Visitor(grandson?) John Faulkes,5,b Wrexham,Denbs
Lodger.,Sarah Price,39,pauper,b Wrexham,Denbs(daughter?)



1871 WALES CENSUS..........Is y coed
Head.,John Kelly,60,shoemaker,b Ireland
Wife.,Elizabeth,70,b Dudleston,Shrops

Can anyone please find the couple in 1851 census,when Thomas should be with them,aged 8 or 4depending on which census you read!

Also,looking for the couple in 1841 Wales census,just before
Thomas was born......they could also be on English census in 1841,if they stayed round Elizabeth's parents in Shropshire,after marrying in 1838.

Thankyou for taking the trouble to look at my posting.
Elaine