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Outside the box ideas? UPDATE page 7

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 6 Apr 2009 17:31

I haven't had a following like this since I found the bus driver's birth mother!

I can't wait. Its going to be a disappointment if it only gives her "parents" details.

Pat showed me some old photos she'd found amongst her Mums stuff. OMG they are wonderful! I've got a fair idea who they are of. One of them has Scarnell/Rooke written on the back. Its an old lady in bed with her bonnet on and her daughter sitting on a chair next to her.

Well, judging by the clothing and the type of picture I dated it to the 1880's. So I looked for a Scarnell/Rooke marriage and Voila! Thos. Rooke married Hannah Scarnell 1865 and in the 1891 their neighbour was a photographer. So chances are it is Hannah and her mother Sarah Scarnell born C1797 who died 1889. The weird thing is, Pats Mum was the absolute double of the old lady, something which shouldn't be so unless Sarah was her ancestor.

Hannah and Thomas's family lived in Lambeth, not a milion miles from Putney/Wandsworth and it was their daughter Lily who worked as a registrar. Roll on tomorrow when, fingers crossed, the certificate should arrive.

Lady Cutie

Lady Cutie Report 6 Apr 2009 17:55

Oh gosh Janet ,
what an intresting thread .. cant wait
for the cert to arrive .
i love a mystery.

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 6 Apr 2009 18:57

Hmmmm. Relative who was a registrar, record not making it to the GRO........

I hope Wandsworth Register office can find it.


Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 6 Apr 2009 19:02

So do I. The certificate did give me the page and book reference so I included those and a contact phone number. They haven't called me.


Libby22 Report 6 Apr 2009 21:55

Good luck with your search. Like the others, I'm awaiting the outcome, it's so interesting is this story.


FannyByGaslight Report 6 Apr 2009 22:33

Just read this and I am as eager as everyone else for the next instalment.

Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 7 Apr 2009 21:51

Guess who got a phone call from Wandsworth RO today? Pats Mum doesn't appear in the book/page no that I got from the short certificate.

Thankfully the guy at the office is as intrigued as I am and has asked to see the short certificate. So will get a copy tomorrow from Pat and send.

Doreen, we will find you!


EvieBeavie Report 7 Apr 2009 22:21

Do you think they'll decide the cert was a fraud and revoke her birth? ;)

Sort of like when they find out a marriage was bigamous!

Now I'm wondering about the old parish records in the little Cornwall parish one bunch of mine hail from. My greatx4 grandfather, I've discovered, was the parish clerk there (and "a worthy man", so it says in his death entry). (And interestingly, one of his greatx2 granddaughters, not in my own line, was a registry office clerk in 1901. And here's me, of course -- BMDs are in those genes.) But I guess if he was such a worthy man he wouldn't have been falsifying stuff. ;)

Hurry up and get him that copy now!


FannyByGaslight Report 7 Apr 2009 22:41

Thank heavens you didnt get a jobsworth registrar.
He might be related to my poor long suffering lady reg.
She groans whenever she hears my voice on the phone,I dont even have to say who it is now.
But she still goes the extra mile
Well [cheap] flowers and choccies go a long way I have found.


EvieBeavie Report 7 Apr 2009 23:07

Just thought of a little exercise that might be useful.

Did the various Doreen Ps have siblings / identifiable parents?

> DOREEN P COLVILLE mmn Trutch Edmonton 4/4 1918

Births Dec 1916
Colville Cynthia D Trutch Edmonton 3a 1096

Huh. Two Colvilles married two Trutches, 1913 and 1917. So right off the bat, who knows on that one?? Seems accounted for one way or the other, though.

> doreen P Harmer mmn Granades Steyning 4/4 1918

no marriage after 1910, no other births. But is Granades a real name? ... No.

Marriages Sep 1914
Harmer Frederick W, Dorothy Granados Steyning 2b 574

No other births.

> Doreen P Wood mmn Jones Atcham 4/4 1918

Yeah, I'm gonna search those ones ...

Actually, there are about 8 Wood-Jones births in Atcham 1911-1930, so far.

> DOREEN P WRIGHT mmn Orwell 4/4 1918

Births Mar 1930
Wright Mona M Orwell Tendring 4a 1290

Maybe, maybe not.

Marriages Mar 1918
Wright Leonard G Orwell Edmonton 3a 1250
- wife not transcribed.

> DOREEN P JACOBS mmn Humphreys Romford 1/4 1919

No other births.

Marriages Sep 1913
Jacobs Mary A G, Henry J Humphreys Fulham 1a 933

> Doreen P Newton mmn Parsley Bristol 1/4 1919

Births Sep 1922
Newton William A E Parsley Swindon 5a 28

Marriages Jun 1913
Newton Francis H J, Katherine P Parsley Bristol 6a 273

> Doreen P Shipp mmn Gunner Croydon 1/4 1919

Births Sep 1913
Shipp John C K Gunner Croydon 2a 782
Births Mar 1919
Shipp Doreen P Gunner Croydon 2a 445
Shipp Raymond K Gunner Croydon 2a 446

Marriages Jun 1911
SHIPP Robert H K, Eleanor B Gunner Reigate 2a 418

So. The upshot is that there don't seem to be any strays among the Doreen Ps born in the timeframe.

I'm thinking that the entire certificate is a fraud, and all you can do is hope that the date of birth itself is correct.

Presumably the local registrar would be able to identify births on that date??


Julie Report 7 Apr 2009 23:35

Hannah and Thomas's family lived in Lambeth, not a milion miles from Putney/Wandsworth and it was their daughter Lily who worked as a registrar

Can i just add my 2p worth

Wandsworth is the 2nd biggest borough in London & there no way i'd walk to Wandsworth from Putney i'd get the bus lol


EvieBeavie Report 8 Apr 2009 00:17

Sort me out here!

Putney is in Wandsworth reg dist. There's another part of the district just called Wandsworth?

... Yup. The 1901 has them both as place names, both in Wandsworth reg dist.

Janet may have meant the reg dist. I'm not too clear on where the Rookes were ...

Ethel Elizabeth Alberta Bartlett and Ernest Edward Rooke
married December quarter 1909 Islington


ROOKE ETHEL ELIZABETH 1888 23 Watford Hertfordshire
ROOKE ERNEST EDWARD 1880 31 Watford Hertfordshire

by themselves, no other Rookes in household.

All the Rooke-Bartletts were born 1921-1929 in Islington reg dist, so that's where they were in 1918 maybe. But not necessarily ... ?

edit - are those Rooke-Bartletts theirs, or am I confused? They start a little late for a 1909 marriage. I think I'm confused, and Ethel and Ernest didn't have kids ...............

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 8 Apr 2009 01:18

I guess I'm not that shocked.

See if you can get the other name(s) with that book/page number. There's a small chance the surname/maiden name might hold some clues.



Julie Report 8 Apr 2009 06:38

HI Evie

Yes Putney does come under the reg district of Wandsworth & there is also a Wandsworth in Wandsworth, but the borough of Wandsworth is absolutely huge lol

A few years back when Wandsworth did away with council tax there was up roar as Putney is expensive to live in


Julie Report 8 Apr 2009 06:41

Im wondering if your friends Mum was adopted by Ethel & her birth Mum was a younger sister of Ethel's

If this is the right Family
This is the 1901 and Ernest age is out but this could be the Putney connection

Ernest Rooke
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Harriett
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England

Civil Parish: Putney
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:


Condition as to marriage:


Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub registration district: Putney
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 338
Household Members: Name Age
William Rooke 55
Harriett Rooke 54
Ernest Rooke 14
Lily J Rooke 24
Florence A Rooke 23
Rosalie Rooke 19
Wm Robertson 60


EvieBeavie Report 8 Apr 2009 19:09

Janet said her Ernest and Ethel didn't have sibs, per the censuses.

I wonder too though. The birth was in 1918 - maybe a sib born after the 1901?


Jooleh Report 8 Apr 2009 19:56

Just done an experiment on

Put in the volume and page no and year/quarter range but no name. You then get a list of the births for the district within the given time frame.

Janet if you post the vol & page no here asap we can all have nosey and see if anyone can help you make a connection with any of the names................



EvieBeavie Report 8 Apr 2009 20:09

I second that! I'd been searching through the thread trying to see whether there was a vol/page reference.

I wonder whether the short version birth cert doesn't give it? I'm not familiar with them.

I tried searching for Smith reg Dec Q 1918 in Wandsworth to see what the page numbers were for births reg in that quarter in that district, and there are just waaaay too many of them to work with. (9775 entries in vol 1d for Wandsworth, Dec Q 1918.)

And sorry - Janet said Ernest and Ethel had no *sisters*, not no sibs. So one does wonder whether Doreen might have been the child of a brother.


EvieBeavie Report 8 Apr 2009 20:24

What I've been wanting for ref

Ernest Rooke's household in 1891 in Shoreditch:

Robert Rook 39
Elizabeth Rook 39
William Rook 15
Ernest Rook 11
Walter Sidney Rook 9
Robert Henry Rook 6
Benjamin Rook 4

and in 1901:

Robert Rook 51
Elizabeth Rook 51
Edward Rook 25
Ernest Rook 21
Walter Rook 19
Robert Rook 16
Benjamin Rook 14
Alfred Rook 7

Load of boys, not likely to have had any girls post-1901. ;)

Ethel in 1901?

Sidney D Phelps 50
Kate M Phelps 36
Ethel E A Bartlett 14 - niece

Seems to be her in 1891 also in Hornsey:

Joseph Bartlett 27
Emma E Bartlett 24
Joseph C Bartlett 6
Ethel A Bartlett 4

and the family in 1901 in Ilford:

Joseph S J Bartlett 35
Emma E Bartlett 33
Joseph C Bartlett 16
Agnes Bailey 19 - it says Aunt; domestic

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 8 Apr 2009 22:08

You can't use FreeBMD because the book/page numbers Janet has are specific to Wandsworth and are not related to the GRO page and volume numbers.