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Ok Janice.......the first thing is..I am happy with the marriage of Annie to Joseph Heath....and that they ended up in \R|otherham..which is where you are I gather.

The first thing is to try and establish Annie's parents..I've sent you one..maybe two options on your thread.........and i have seen the entry for Henry born 1875..and am happy enough he is Annie's brother........though 14 years between their births is quite a long time..even by 19th Century standards..though if your CIRCA 1859 turns out to be, as \i suggest , 1863..its not so bad..........

Trouble is I cannot find a birth for Henry 1875.I suspect he had another Christian name.......and you have asked the question of how they got from Chesterfield |Workhouse to Rotherham.....you will know that Chesterfield is actually not that far away....

It's how they got \OUT of the Workhouse that interests me.......and i ma at the moment looking into the Ann Holford that ended up in Sheffield and went nowhere near the Workhouse.....The transition from |Chesterfield to Rotherham via Sheffield seems to be to be very reasonable.

Bear with me....I have loads of records..and am looking for henry's parents........I'll get back to you.

Derek.

Thank you Derek, i will continue to search the online records to see if there's anything else out there that may make sense of it all...look forward to hearing from with (hopefully) more news!

Janice

Hello Janice.you may have noticed in the 1871 Census........Emma Harriet Ann and Emma. (Ann 1859) and Charlotte 1869..were all in the Workhouse as Paupers..under the name of Halford.....

You may not have noticed CHARLOTTE HALFORD widow,,,1841 Dronfield........

I suspect that she is probably the mother of all the others..including Ann (Annie)

I have found a marriage for HENRY HALFORD to CHARLOTTE SEARSTON 1857 Chesterfield (Dronfield is part of Chesterfield)....

somehow or another after the death of Henry they all ended up in great poverty........you know that Annie escaped the fate eventually and married Joseph Heath in Rotherham........well so did Charlotte senior..because in 1901 she is at Old Brampton Chesterfield as a \boarder.......In both cases.(1871 in the Workhouse and 1901 Old Brampton she is "Dronfied 1841",,and a Charwoman...

I have been unable to find the parents of the other children because they are in that difficult period between two censuses 1861 and 1871...though you'd expect to find Annie on the 1861 if she was born 1859......but whatever else we find it appears to be a sad sad story...

Derek.

Hi Derek,

Yes it is spelling out a sad story indeed.
All the info i'm getting is just confirming what i have already found...

1857 Chesterfield, Derbys...Marriage of Henry Holford & Charlotte Searston

1861...Castle Yard, Wheeldon Lane, Chesterfield, Derbys.
ALFRED/ALFORD, Henry, Head, 34, 1827, labourer coal mine, Le Donnington, Leicests.
ALFRED/ALFORD, Charlotte, Wife, 22, 1839, Dronfield, Derbys.
ALFRED/ALFORD, Ann, Dgt, 4, 1857, Chesterfield, Derbys.
ALFRED/ALFORD, George, Son, 2, 1859, Chesterfield, Derbys.
ALFRED/ALFORD, Anna, Dgt, 3m, 1861, Chesterfield, Derbys.

At this point i do not know what happened to Henry (snr), he is about somewhere as there's son Henry born in 1872/73 but i doubt he's listed anywhere official till his death in 1875. Dgt Anna b:1861 i believe to be Emma on the 1871 & 1881 workhouse census.
There are 2 possible deaths for son George...1864 & 1865 both Chesterfield, Derbys.

1871...Poor Law Union Workshouse, Chesterfield.
HALFORD, Charlotte, Pauper, 33 (30), 1841, Derbyshire.
*HALFORD, Ann, Pauper, 13, 1858, Derbyshire.
HALFORD, Emma, Pauper, 10, 1861, Derbyshire.
HALFORD, Mary, Pauper, 6, 1865, Derbyshire.
HALFORD, Harriet, Pauper, 5, 1866, Derbyshire.
HALFORD, Charlotte, Pauper, 2, 1869, Derbyshire.

1872 Chesterfield, Derbys...Birth of Henry Holford (jnr)

1874 Chesterfield, Derbys...Death of Mary Holford (on 1871 but not 1881)

1875 Derby, Derbyshire...Death of Henry Holford (snr)

1879 Rotherham,Yorks....Marriage of *Ann (Annie) Holford to Joseph Heath.

1881...The Workhouse, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Charlotte, Inmate, Widow, 40, 1841, Char or washerwoman, Dronfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Emma, Inmate, Single, 20, 1861, Domestic Servant, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Harriet, Inmate, 15, 1866, Scholar, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Charlotte, Inmate, 12, 1869, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.
HULFORD, Henry, Inmate, 8, 1873, Chesterfield, Derbyshire.

1891 Rotherham, Yorks...Brother Henry Holford living with Ann & Joseph Heath.
(can't find him on the 1901 or 1911 census Derbys. or Yorks.)

1901 Chesterfield, Derbys...Charlotte Holford, Boarder, Widow, 60, 1841, Char or Washerwoman, Dronfield, Derbys.
(can't find her on 1891)

1911 Chesterfield, Derbys...Death of Charlotte Holford age 67 (making birth abt 1844).


Now, the only thing that throws a spanner in the works with all of this is the mother Charlotte, if the marriage for Henry Holford to Charlotte Searston is correct then i'm in big trouble :-S
The only Charlotte Searston i can find for Derbyshire is in on the 1851 & 1861 census b:1843/44 Wessington, Derbys. with a Thorpe family...this cannot be my Charlotte as she is married 1857 listed with Henry on the 1861 census.

I have found a possible 1841 & 1851 listing for Henry snr in Leicestershire as that is the only place i have to go on from the 1861 listing.

Is there any way to track down this Charlotte Searston of mine that married Henry Holford 1857 and see if she turns out to be the Dronfield Charlotte b:1841 from the workhouse records?
Is it possible from workhouse record to find out how that Charlotte and her children came to be there, where they came from, why they were there etc...anything to shed some light on this sad affair please!

And many thanks for helping :-)

hello Janice.what's doing my head in is all this changing from Holford.to Halford to Hulford.......due to misreading by somebody of the original, sometimes almost indecipherable Census originals....

I think you can ignore to Wessington Charlotte.as I firmly believe that we should ignore the variations of the name HOLFORD..and again we should ignore ages given on census returns that are often as much a five years out..having been rounded up or down.

As for the Dronfield Charlotte..we have absolute evidence of Charlotte Searston (Searstern....depending on the handwriting on Census,,,"er" coud easily be "o")..in 1857..........even if Charlotte was born 1843 or 1844.she could still be legally married in 1857.......which allows for all the children named to be born before the 1871 "Workhouse" Census.and for Charlotte to be a widow............That looks eminently consistent and feasible.

The ONLY way to be sure is to send for Birth certificates for one of the children..probably for Harriet 1863 or Charlotte 1869..........The reason I do not suggest Annie is becasue there are one or two alternatives that will confuse you further.....Birth certificates will give both parents and the mother;s maiden name......

The only possible glitch there is that with all my records i cannot find baptisms for any of the children,,except my original possible Annie 2.08.1863.....

It would not surprise me if, given the rapid seeming descent into poverty,caused probably by the death of (Henry Holford?)..the children were not baptised...and there was at that time no legal requirement to even register the births........and I think THAT may be the nub of all our problems.....

For what its worth i think it is perhaps simpler than it seems.....IF your parents are Henry and Charlotte..then the Charlotte widow aged 30 Dronfield Workhouse 1871..is indeed the mother of the children.....I'd go for the Birth Certificates...

If you go for ANNIE HOLFORD..I can guarantee that the only certificate you get back will be 23.08.1863 daughter of William (mining engineer Oldham Lancs and Mary Anne Potter (of lancs)...who by 1861 had moved to Chesterfield and had as yet no children.......which, if you can prove that your Ann(Annie) WAS born 1859..would prove to be the wrong parents...............but what if they are the right ones???

What you're looking for is one of those children with a Birth certificate showing Henry and Charlotte Holford (nee Searston).......

I will, in the near future , be going to Matlock records Office..so I might find some answers.

Derek.

Thank you for all your help Derek, it is very much appreciated, the marriage record for my Annie and Joseph is on order and i think you are right about ordering the birth certificate of one of the other children, i will see if i can find any birth records for the others while i am waiting on the marriage certificate.

Thanks again
Janice :-)

Hi Derek
I have been reading your thread with interest for some months and would appreciate some help with a Repton family that is no doubt well known to you. I am having some difficulty in establishing the ancestry of Lydia Meakin, who was baptised on 16 Dec 1798 with parents William & Mary. So far I have been unable to find a marriage for William, who I believe was baptised in 1768 to parents Thomas Meakin and Ellen Thorp. Can you confirm that the details above are correct and shed any light on the marriage of William and Mary? Do you have any info on further ancestors?
Regards
Jim

Morning Derek :-D

There is thread on here which has a Derbyshire connection.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1291108

We've found a West Derby marriage, and wonder if you have it on your discs? There is strong possibilty that it is RC or Reg office, so don't worry if you haven't got it.

Marriages Jun 1876
McCaul William W. Derby 8b 691
McNulty Margaret W. Derby 8b 691

Many thanks - back this afternoon/evening, unless you want to reply on the other thread?

Hi DET..nice to hear from you.....I thought a star of your ilk might know that West Derby is in LIVERPOOL..not derbyshire.... teeheee..

Derek.

Doh! It's Oop Norf, in'r'i? It shouldn't be allowed to be called West Derby if it isn't in Derbyshire :-P Sorry. :-S

Hi Derek!

Well here goes with the Smelts!

Leonard Smelt, b1847 in Dronfield, married Fanny Parratt in 2nd qtr 1973 at Cemetery Road Chapel, Ecclesall Bierlow.

They had two daughters, Ada b 1875 and Ethel b 1879. Ada married my grandfather in 1900 and Ethel married Benjamin Blackshaw in 1905.

On the 1901 census Leonard and Fanny are shown as having their niece, Nellie Ellis aged 7 last birthday and born in Sheffield, living with them.

There are only two Nellie Ellis births recorded for Sheffiled, both in the same month of June. I have sent for the birth certiifcate for one of them, but the parents names do not have any connection with our family. On the 1911 census there is a Nellie Smelt at 17 years of age last birthday, working as a maid, but I cannot find a birth record at all for Nellie Smelt. She also married as Nellie Smelt.

I think Nellie Ellis and Nellie Smelt are the same person, perhaps adopted by Leonard and Fanny, or changed her name to theirs. Fanny's sister Ann married a William Ellis but Ann died in 1886 so can't have given birth to Nellie. This is where more confusion comes in! On the 1871 census they have one daughter aged 2 called Charlotte Ada? (very faint transcript). On the 1881 their daughter aged 12 is called Annie, with another daughter aged 9 called Agnes.I am sure it is the same family as their ages and birth places all match on each census record. On the 1891 census Annie is not listed so has obviously moved away or married, but Agnes is still there aged 19. Could it be that she had an illegitimate child or perhaps died in child birth?

Confused yet!!! I am.

Any help would really be appreciated.
:-) :-)

Hello YG.....you haven't given me your first name..which is ok for the Nutlodge..but a bit distant on my Thread...

It would be handy if you opened your Tree for me..pretty please....but not essential if you prefer not to..........

OK..you say that Ada Smelt married your grandfather..would that be EDGAR PAYNE??..and have you any idea why she might have a midle name "Brroklesbank"......I am looking into the possibility that he mother Frances Smelt may have been Brooklesbank.

The fact that the Smelts appear to have been..at least in part "Chapel" i.e Non conformist takes the wind out of my sails a bit...limits my enquiries.

However....I can tell you that Leonard Smelt 1847 had the parents THOMAS and ELIZABETH SMELT..both appear to have been Smelts..(cousins)...becasue when they were married 07.06.1840 their fathers were Samuel and Thomas Smelt respectively..and both fathers were Carpenters..nothing like keeping it in the family..

I haven't gone into top gear yet..but interestingly one of the Census returns suggests that leonard Smelt may have been at one time Leonard Ellis.

There is no doubt in my mind that Nellie Ellis and nellie Smelt are one and the same person..and the clue may lie in the above dichotomy.

Incidentally..you msy or may not know that the family are listed as SMITT rather than SMELT on the 1851 Census.

The Nellie being a niece dilemma may lie in the fact that Leonard Smelt was one of six children.including three sisters..any one of which could have married an Ellis and be Nellie's mother....

Finally for now......just checking I'm on the right track.......EDGAR PAYNE 1876-1956???...son Edgar 1911-1965????

Loads more work to do..most of which you probably know..but \i like the work!!

see you soon

Derek.

Hello Derek

Well, what a turn up for the book!! That is very interesting about Leonard and has given me food for thought!!

Edgar Payne b 1856 was my grandfather, and the other Edgar was my father. Leonard Smelt was my ggrandfather.

Going on to Brooksbank, Fanny Parratt's mother's maiden name was Charlotte Brooksbank. I haven't got back to Ada's mother yet. I am still a bit of a novice with very little spare time, so don't like creating too many branches at once!!

I have some conflicting information on Leonard's sisters. My rellie in Oz (descendent of Ethel Smelt) send me a long list of Smelts that he has in his tree (dont know whether they are verified). He shows a Mary Smelt (sister of Leonard, born c 1850); however, I have found Ann, b1843, Elizabeth b1849, David b1851 and George b 1844. I'm not sure whether this information is correct.

I am more than happy to give you access to my tree and will sort that out now.

I will be off the site until mid evening tomorrow as I have to do a full restore on my laptop tonight and then wait for the computer guy to come tomorrow evening to finish off a few bits for me, but as long as all goes well I should be back on Nut Lodge around 8.30ish.

Thank you for all your help.

Julie (now you know!!)

Hello Julie..seems you've got your Computer sorted.....You have quite an accomplished tree............

I've been waiting till you got back on line......here are a couple of snippets:-

CHARLES PARRATT..baptised 08.11.1822 in Bradford sonn of William and Hannah.........I can expand this if you'd like.

You asked about the accuracy of Mary Smelt 1850..well its nonsense!!

MARY SMELT was in fact the eldest of the siblings of LEONARD SMELT 1847......her dates are actually 1841-1910..and i can confirm this due to my research for another member...of the GASCOYNE family......Mary married Tom Gascoyne (born 1843)....in 1871 and had two children Arthur 1872 and Fred 1873...

The other siblings of Leonard 1847 were.....Ann 1843/George 1844/LEONARD 1847/ Elizabeth 1850/ and David 1851.

I have loads of links,but not as yet anything to explain the suggestion that either Leonard 1847..or his "niece" were Ellis related......

..will keep looking.

Best thing,rather than bombarding you with stuff that you already knw, is for you to ask me.....

Derek.

Hi Derek

Thank you for the information.

I will start searching for Leonard's siblings marriages and see I can come up with anything there re the Ellis's.

Doubtless I will be in touch again!!

Julie

Sorry Derek, I jusy sent you a message but I think my request should be on here.
I would like all details of the marriage Mary Carlin to William Shooter at Somercotes Alfreton Derbyshire. I think 1875.
Thank you.

Hello Joan..just replied to your PM.before I saw this message..thanks..you got me out of trouble!!

I have sent you info...and instructions you clearly don't need..sorry about that...please get back to me if you think i can help further.

Derek

Hello Debra..thanks for your message.....but although I have a fairly extensive set of records,,including North Wingfield........I'm afraid my cut off point is the 1911 Census.you will see that I do have a pretty vast range of data over probably three or four counties.....but I have to specialise to some extent and decided to cut off completely at 1911 census.

anything before then I'd be glad to help...

Derek.

Hi Derek,
If you can find the Parish record of Mary Carlin to William Shooter 1875 details I'd be most grateful. I'm assuming that his sister was a wit & him a wit to hers to Robert Absalom same day?
It would be nice to have addresses etc.
I've done quite a bit of work on the Shooter ancestry.
Many Thanks. Joan

Hello Joan........I don't have the Alfreton Parish records beyond 1861..and the only way you're going to find the omformation you require is from the Marriage Certicate......on which there will be agoe of bride and groom..date of marriage..father's name (maybe mother's as well, and the witnesses.....It will also give you the residences of both Bride and Groom on day of marriage.........

I can tell you that William was living in Birchwood Lane in both 1871 and 1881...in 1871 at No 18..not given in 1881........though in 1881 both William and Elizabeth..brother an sister were living next door to each other in Birchwood lane..with their new spouses.

Mary Carlin in 1871 was a servant aged 14, with the Cartledge family at Lea Brooks lane. Alfreton.

Derek.