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Outside the box ideas? UPDATE page 7

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 24 Mar 2009 22:00

I volunteered myself to find the birth certificate for a friends mother. I've done it a thousand times before so thought nothing of it. I looked in the correct quarter and the following quarter and found nothing. Not to be defeated, I looked under the mothers maiden name, still nothing. So, I told my friend and she said that she thought that it was possible that her mum wasn't her grandfathers child. So I am coming to the conclusion that her Mum was probably adopted. Problem is, she was born before formal adoption came into place.

So, I have now checked the indexes for all babies born in the relevant quarters with the correct first name and middle initial. There are 8 possibles. 2 of these are within a 3 mile radius of where her parents lived, 3 are within a 15 mile radius while the other three are totally of the radar. I am checking for maternal deaths in those quarters and as it was at the end of WW1 I am going to look for deaths of Fathers on the CWGC.

Now the "adoptive" mother had no sisters and neither did the "father"

So, has anyone any ideas that I haven't thought of?

I did wonder about NI numbers but I guess they didn't come in tilll the late 40's. What about ID cards from the War. How did you get one of these?

Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 24 Mar 2009 22:15

Well, CWGC isn't going to help. One of the names is Wright and there are more than 900 of those, just in 1918-1920. It is so sad that so many of them are just down as unknown age and unknown next of kin.

Still, I will now look for the possible parents marriages on free BMD.


Julie Report 24 Mar 2009 22:15

But she might have still been her G/mothers daughter

Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 24 Mar 2009 22:32

I did look to see if she was under the Mothers name but she isn't there unless Mum gave a false name.


Julie Report 24 Mar 2009 22:37

If the Dad wasn't there when Mum registered her daughter but wanted to put a Dads name on the cert then yes she could have made out she was married.

If you have a 1st name & birth date just use that to search

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 24 Mar 2009 22:46

Can you give us the details?

It's always easier to make suggestions if you can deal with names.



Paula Report 25 Mar 2009 13:55

You could try searching the deaths for each of your 8 candidates. Many died shortly after birth so you may be able to elimenate some candidates that way. Also, check marriages at around their age 17 to 25 and you may be able to rule out some more.

Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 25 Mar 2009 17:00

So sorry not to have got back to you all any sooner. These are the details I have.

Doreen Pamela Rooke born 10th December 1918

Parents; Ethel Elizabeth Alberta Bartlett and Ernest Edward Rooke married December quarter 1909 Islington.

Now I have looked for her birth being registered up to 1925 and I also looked for her birth from the time of parents marriage onwards. (Though this would be unlikely as she only died last month)

Ernest was born Holborn 1879 and has no sisters on census and Ethel was born Islington 1886 and has no sisters on census.

Doreen P's born last quarter 1918 and first 1919 are as follows those which are the nearest possibilities are in capitals. (I managed to discount one birth as there was a corresponding death)

DOREEN P COLVILLE mmn Trutch Edmonton 4/4 1918
doreen P Harmer mmn Granades Steyning 4/4 1918
Doreen P Wood mmn Jones Atcham 4/4 1918
DOREEN P WRIGHT mmn Orwell 4/4 1918

DOREEN PJACOBS mmn Humphreys Romford 1/4 1919 (family had links to area)
Doreen P Newton mmn Parsley Bristol 1/4 1919
Doreen P Shipp mmn Gunner Croydon 1/4 1919

Ernest had a brother who died on 27th march 1918 who was killed in action in Aldershot gaining a DCM in the process. i wonder if he bears any relevance as Doreen's daughter remembers being taken to see his grave and as far as I know Doreen didn't get on with her father so why take her daughter to see the grave of an uncle who died before she was born?

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 25 Mar 2009 17:48

Do you have Ernest's army records? Did he serve in WWI? Just wondering if he were away when Doreen was conceived.

I don't see any children for the couple before this.

Are these their children too?

Births Sep 1921
Rooke George D Bartlett Islington 1b 421

Births Jun 1924
Rooke James W Bartlett Islington 1b 373

Births Jun 1929
Rooke Rose E C Bartlett Islington 1b 339


Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 25 Mar 2009 18:14

Just realized they are only up to N on the army records on Ancestry.


Gwyn in Kent

Gwyn in Kent Report 25 Mar 2009 18:26

Is it possible that the registration never made it onto the GRO master index, but could be in a local list?

Am I reading between the lines that you think the deceased brother could be her father...?


Selena in South East London

Selena in South East London Report 25 Mar 2009 18:59

What is Ernest's brother's name?

Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 26 Mar 2009 19:27

So sorry not to have come back yesterday to answer your queries, I went to bed cos I had a splitting headache. This morning was the first time in three days that I awoke without it.

Yes, I'm certainly suspicious that Ernest's brother was Doreen's father. His name was Walter Sidney Rook (no e on the end) Of course I could be barking up the wrong tree as I'm assuming that the father died whereas it could just as easily been the mother died because of the 'flu epidemic.

Background info I have is that Ernest was a brute of a man to both wife and daughter. I don't know if he was physically violent but he certainly knew how to intimidate them. Consequently Doreen never talked about her childhood.

Now as for the three other Rooke/Bartlett children I think they were the children of Daniel George Rooke (b1895) and Rose Bartlett who married 3rd quarter 1920. I'm sure they are probably related but not sure how yet.
Funnily enough on the 1901 Daniel Rooke's family are down as both Rooke and Rook.

Doreen was an only child as far as my friend knows.

Selena in South East London

Selena in South East London Report 27 Mar 2009 10:22


Births Mar 1882 Rook Walter Sidney Hackney 1b 49_

Marriages Sep 1903
JONES Clementina Shoreditch 1c 223
Neville Frederick Shoreditch 1c 223
Rook Walter Sidney Shoreditch 1c 223
SMITH Phoebe Emily C Shoreditch 1c 223

Births Mar 1913 Rooke Frank G Smith Hackney 1b 941

Births Sep 1916 Rook Charles W Smith Shoreditch 1c 101

Births Dec 1921 ROOK Benjamin E R Smith Hackney 1b 811

Do you have Doreen's marriage certificate? Who is listed as her father?

Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 5 Apr 2009 17:02

Pat has now located her mum's certificate. However, it is only a short one so I've ordered a copy of the full version. It transpires that she was born in Putney!!!!!!!!

Now from the 1911 there are a pile of Rookes living there so they must be related to her Father. Some of the Putney mob are also listed in Doreen's old address book.

Can't wait till the full certificate arrives. I wonder if it will reveal anything about her real parentage.

In 10 years this is the first time I've had a certificate which didn't make it to the GRO


Madmeg Report 5 Apr 2009 19:30


This is what is known as "real research", where the answer isn't obvious and you have to go round the houses to get there. It is really exciting when you do get there.

Hope the full certificate gives lots of good info - let us know.


Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 6 Apr 2009 02:19

Good job she found that.

I'm always a bit suspicious of short certs.

Do you know when it was issued?


Janet 693215

Janet 693215 Report 6 Apr 2009 11:52

Yes I'm always suspicious of short certificates too. They can hide a multitude of misdemeanors.The certificate was issued on 30th December 1918 so only 20 days after the birth. The "parents" appear to have spent their married life together in and around Palmers Green so why have the baby in Putney if she is theirs? (Though, having said that, my own great gran had her third child some 15 miles away from home.)

What makes me even more suspicious is that one of the fathers relations was a registrar so would have known that a short certificate would not reveal parentage.

I do hope Wandsworth RO get the certificate to me soon! (They reckon a day turn around)


Nickydownsouth Report 6 Apr 2009 12:03

Been following this thread with intrest..........please do put up the details when you get the full cert.



EvieBeavie Report 6 Apr 2009 15:43

Me too! So I'll just stick my mark on the thread so I'll see when something new comes up. ;)